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| Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp http://www.mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=42271 |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
I had a very long and intense discussion with one of my good friends who served in the airforce. I'm quoting you from the "creepy ass cracker" thread, posting here as to not hijack your thread. " I could kill citizens of this country to protect the constitution"" [I must protect from] enemies both foreign and domestic" what is your take on this, can you go more in-depth... Could you still protect it if the government itself began turning it's back on the constitution? If the government itself began turning on it's own citizens? As it has in recent history with the government killing American citizens in drone strikes. These people are still American citizens and still have a right to a fair trial, if they can be captured and tried why weren't they? In my own opinion they can kill Osama bin laden but can't capture a couple traitors? In my own opinion the government is changing, as much or more than some of the people. |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
My friend told me ucmj is the reason why very few, if any would turn their backs on the government if it did come down to the government doing something radical, again this is all hypothetical. |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
And on top of that, a government that doesn't follow it's own rules, that actually targets it's own people, ex: IRS. Elected and appointed officials that refuse to testify , I do understand the justice system should rake care of these people, as in find them guilty or not guilty, but how does all of this effect your outlook on the government "constitution" you've/I've sworn to protect. |
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| Author: | barnes_53 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
UCMJ punishment doesn't mean shit when it comes to a govt cracking down on it's own people and causing a civil war. It doesn't mean shit when the govt doesn't follow the Constitution. The oath was to protect the Constitution, not a rogue inefficient government. Try to take a people's freedom and liberty and watch the results. You may be surprised at the result and THAT is NOT hypothetical. When I enlisted (and re-enlisted) in the United States Marine Corps, I (like all other active duty or reserve military enlisted), took the following oath: I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Now if you will allow me to break the oath down into understandable parts: defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; All Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. Where does our president, congress, judges, and/or any other elected or appointed officials in our government get their power? Only one source, and that is the Constitution. Therefore strict adherence to the Constitution is an absolute must or all powers become undefined. obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Obey the orders of the President of the United States. And where does the president get his authority? Only from the Constitution. But what if there is a conflict between a presidential order and the Constitution? that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; The oath states to bear true faith and allegiance to the same. The same meaning the Constitution. The oath is not faith or allegiance to an individual. Not to any individual. This includes the president. according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. And this is the qualifier. The UCMJ states in articles 90, 91, and 92 the duty to obey a lawful order. Each and every time the word lawful is used. So what if there is a conflict between a presidential order and the Constitution? The Constitution is the law of the land. It defines our country. It is what authorizes all governmental powers. And any order that conflicts with the Constitution by definition is not a lawful order. And finally... foreign and domestic This is strange. Right? At first glance, the foreign part is obvious. But why domestic? Well first glances can be deceiving. Who is more likely to subvert the Constitution? A foreign enemy? Or a domestic enemy? "I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited. There's a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: as government expands, liberty contracts." - The Gipper Service members are still American citizens. Take away American citizens' rights you take away theirs also. Without them the services do not exist. |
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| Author: | da go get'er [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Great post! Barnes keep your head on a swivel that drone could be locking in at any time. |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Ok I understand. But what I meant by my original post was, if the president takes away our 2nd amendment right without amending it. As in, through legislation and not the correct way, through due process, and a civil war is waged by the people against the government, who will the armed forces be led by, if they must follow the presidents orders, and superior officers orders, wouldn't that mean, the citizens would be fighting the usmc navy army airforce ect ect ect? |
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| Author: | DeuceChunker [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Nobody is going to take away your Second Amendment rights. |
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| Author: | tylerduckman [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Outstanding post leatherneck !!!! |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
| Author: | barnes_53 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
I guess I did. I'm not a military person. Re-reading now |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Ok so in the event of such chaos, if you are to defend the constitution of the united states, and the president is misrepresenting the constitution, who do you take your orders from if no longer the president? I understand you would be taking their orders from superior officers, I'm talking about them, if they no longer take orders from the president, where do their orders come from? |
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| Author: | da go get'er [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
| Author: | barnes_53 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
| Author: | rangerp [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Barnes posted the oath for enlisted soldiers, and did a good job of explaining it. I am not enlisted, but am a commissioned officer, and my oath is slightly different. "I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God" take notice that my oath does not mention the president, or officers appointed over me. I am sworn to protect the constitution, and the constitution alone. The 2nd Amendment can not be altered or deleted. It is part of the Bill of Rights (BOR), and is a right belonging to the people, not given by the government. So, can the Constitution be amended to eliminate the Bill of Rights? The preamble to the BOR states, “THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.” The BOR has been interpreted as a binding condition to the states ratifying the Constitution. If that is true, then how can the BOR be repealed without abolishing the Constitution? Once again, my oath and loyalty is to the constitution of the United States. My oath is not to the "will of the people", hope and change, the republican party, mom and apple pie... It is to the constitution, and that constitution includes the Bill of Rights. "GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY" is not just a cool slogan to put on the back of some redneck's pickup truck. It is a rank ordering of loyalties. If Country tries to violate God (of the Bible), then I will go with God, and abide by my Bible. Hope that answered your question. |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
More Americans should be asking these same questions. |
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| Author: | nasty [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Thanks guys for the clarification. Tbh, as an American, even though I am not and have never served in the military, I do assume the same responsibilities and obligations as the oaths specify in protecting the constitution. If ever in my life I've got to take arms and stand beside my brethren I would do so gladly to stop a tyrant or enemy of the states as did my grand father in ww2.( waiting on the drone attack...) |
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| Author: | lastchance [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
RangerP/ Barnes I think in a round about way Nasty's asking if a civil war broke out who's side does the military reside on, the people or the government? |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
Last chance asked - "if a civil war broke out who's side does the military reside on, the people or the government?" Not sure how all would answer that, but I will use series of statements and questions: God, family, country. I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution. Communism is an enemy of capitalism. I am a capitalist. Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. In a civil war, which side is sticking with the constitution and most closely abiding by the tenants of Christianity? Weigh the options, and go from there. |
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| Author: | lastchance [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
| Author: | barnes_53 [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
let me try to answer it from a tactical viewpoint: Who is the enemy to the constitution? Foreign or domestic? It doesn't matter. Where is the threat coming from? Our own govt, our own citizens, foreign threat? It doesn't matter. What is their objective? It doesn't matter. So to your answer your question, "Who's side is the military on, the govt or the people?" The answer is neither. They have sworn to protect the constitution and that's where their allegiance is. |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Enemies foreign and domestic-rangerp |
While I would like to think that all Americans would abide by our constitution, we all know that is not the truth. It might be worthwhile to do a study of communist, socialist, and Marxist takeovers throughout the world, and in history. When those takeovers happen, who does the military generally side with, and why? Why do we have a second amendment? If you hypothetically wanted to take over America with some sort of Marxism, how would you go about getting the military on your side, and keeping them there? Would it be wise to slowly change that military by promoting generals that are sympathetic to your cause and ideals. Would you come up with new rules and laws, that may force those who are loyal to the constitution to resign, retire, or just leave? Could you enact laws and rules that would slowly and methodically force men to cave or submit to their own morality and character? Tap a man out once, and it is easier to beat him the second time? Would it be wise to enact a system of politically correct rules that cause those who speak truth to get labeled names such as homophobe, islamaphobe, racist, sexist? "Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society. When an immoral society has blatantly and proudly violated all the commandments, it insists upon one last virtue, tolerance for its immorality. It will not tolerate condemnation of its perversions. It creates a whole new world in which only the intolerant critic of intolerable evil is evil.” Hutton Gibson |
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