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Not a new topic.....
http://www.mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16405
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Author:  KwickLabs [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Not a new topic.....

and I've done a search to check it out. I understand what has been written about flotation.....both sides.

My last and only part of the puzzle is the single point of "foam and water absorbtion". I'm sure the flotation process has improved (maybe not?). Are many of the recent comments the result of older negatives? It isn't unusual for something that happened in the past to perpetuate a perception.

In the last three of four years has anyone with a "newer" construction had trouble with closed cell foam flotation "sucking up water"? Is it fair to say "It will eventually happen?" when the past, older foam technology may be the basis for that opinion? (assuming new is somehow different and better)

Or is building boats a lot more fun and quicker building "commercial hulls"? I get the feeling that "fooling around" with flotation is somehow a significant negative...almost a required nuisance. Since the first comment about a new rig always seems to be "How fast is it?" is that the driving factor for avoiding flotation (speed)? :mrgreen:

Too many nice, used rigs out there without flotation are weakening my resolve (to have flotation). I'm seventy years old and don't know how many more years I'll be hunting, but I sure don't want to be trying to sell a "water logged" boat in 5-6 six years either.

Author:  autogateman [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

well, would you rather sell one that has been sunk?

Author:  bobbyjober [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Example:

Author:  KwickLabs [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  autogateman [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

well, i hear people all the time talkin about how much weight they saved by takin out the flotation and replacing it. I imagine any material will hold water to a certain degree. there are many people on this site that wouldnt have a boat with out it. most of the people that are against it are only concerned about speed. jus my .02

Author:  WestEndAngler [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

I bought a boat (1548) jon w/ a 30HP on the back. Great fast boat was perfect for what me & a friend bought it for. I fixed it up he helped with expenses too. He ended up buying me out of it. 1 week later he sinks it because no flotation in the rear (he had cut it out to make more room for a plywood rear deck)

You live & learn we salvaged the boat but that nice motor is HISTORY!

Author:  KwickLabs [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  autogateman [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Yes. Over time I can imagine all types of flotation will have absorbed a small amount of water. It will be up to you if this is a negligible amount or not.

Author:  cjhondaboy [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

I had pods on the rear of my 1670 with a prodrive and in the front and mine still went down. My mistake was putting that nice of a motor on a %^&*^ty little john. None the less motor was rebuilt and i've put 200 hours since then works great!

The new flotation isn't much better in my openion or at least i haven't seen anything thats much better lately.

Author:  meterman3 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

to answer yer question no the tech has not changed since my dad was buying boats i am 50 now the foam is out there dow blue block is the best but boat builders are still useing the same old stuff saw a study that if the boat sat out side plug out that in 3 to 5 years the foam used would lose 6 to 10 % of floation due to water asorbtion i bought a commercial hull but i wear floation and have a dunk bag will put floation in my prodrive boat blue block just fig how to do it / hope this helps

Author:  Nathan [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

The blue DOW foam is great. Lighter than the pourable stuff and cheaper also. Problem with it is that gasoline will eat it. Not a real big issue. Just have to be careful filling your gas tank.

Nathan

Author:  OwenDickeson [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Why not just make the floor full welded in and sealed airtight, surely the sealed air inside the floor would give just as much flotation as that foam shit. But then again I know nothing about flotation and how much it takes to float a boat full of water.

Author:  quackconsumer [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

I WILL ANSWETS YOOR QUESTON LATtER...... TONight I am dedicate to driiinkin ans do no feeel likke tyyppin rigt now.

Author:  Phathead [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

I think most people that have porblems with waterlogged foam flotation are those that leave their boats outside and uncovered year round or for substantial periods of time so that water collects and sits on the foam until it is absorbed. I cover my boat with a tarp that is bowed up by supports to allow water to run off and I can guarantee that my foam will never get waterlogged. An easy solution to the problem!

Author:  OwenDickeson [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  Phathead [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Sure I get some water in the boat occasionally when hunting but it might be a gallon or 2 at most. It doesn't sit in the boat though and that is my point. I think that most waterlogging is due to water being in the boat longterm--days, weeks, months, etc. not an hour or two. My boat has flotation in front deck and two rear seat pods. None in the floor, so water would have to really get high in the boat to sit in those areas. I will turn my bilge pump on long before that. So--I think it is pretty safe to say my foam ain't getting waterlogged from water sitting on it for a long period of time.

Author:  OwenDickeson [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  meterman3 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

"I think most people that have porblems with waterlogged foam flotation are those that leave their boats outside and uncovered year round or for substantial periods of time so that water collects and sits on the foam until it is absorbed. I cover my boat with a tarp that is bowed up by supports to allow water to run off and I can guarantee that my foam will never get waterlogged. An easy solution to the problem" quote

so what ur saying that u hunt only in clear sunny days and yer dog dries off before it gets in the boat ? lol

Author:  meterman3 [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

wish i could do that tarp but man i live to close to too many lakes boat is used year round i need a shop to store it . but really the pour in foam stuff will soak it over a period of time urs in ur boat will last longer .

Author:  muddoctor [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Here is my .02 on the subject.

First, all foam will absord or hold water over time. The worst is the pour in type, it can be like a sponge, the white bead type is next and the extruded is third. Most of the water issues with foam is when it is installed under a floor or in direct contact with the bottom of the hull. Here is why. First, despite the notion that if you keep your boat inside it will not waterlogged foam, most of the water in the foam is not from rain or being left outside, it is from condensation, cold/warm metal going in and out of cold/warmer water. Most foams only absorb 2-10% water when tested, but over time the foam will develop tiny crack and fractures, these will hold up to 25-55% or more water weight, this worstens with freezing and thawing if you live north of the deep south. Water will find the lowest level as well, when you pull waterlogged foam from a boat it is like a wet sponge, the lower you go the more water you will find. That is why we will not put any foam within 2" of the bottom of our Phowler Hulls, it is all above floor level. Many companies put the foam under the floor to save space in the boat, some boats it is needed there (the pour in stuff) to add structure to the hull or to support a lighter flooring material to save money. The other issue is many companies stuff their foam in so tight it has no air space around it, why, smaller floatation boxes and deck use less material, are lighter and cost less. Problem, when the foam does get wet, it will never dry out, no air to let out the moisture on these warm days. We leave air spaces around our foam and a way for our boxes to breath and decks to vent. Even sealed water tight you will get condensation, it has to have a way to dry out. If you have air space under the foam, 99% of the moisture will drain out, no air, no way to drain, a 2 lbs per sq foot peice of foam will wiegh in at 10-15 lbs when waterlogged down the road.

Now, why do alot of companies not want to mess with floatation, one it is more work to install floatation vs. no-floation, it adds labor and cost. Second, if you make a boat with floatation you better know how to calculate it right, sell a boat that does not pass Coast Guard regs and it sinks you will be recalling alot of boats at great expense, it is not something you can "guesstimate" without opening yourself up down the road. Alot of custom builders and smaller builders just don't want to mess with it.

Floatation/ no Floatation has to be a personal choice and what you are comfortable with. I have run both, down south they are more popular then up north. Why? Go in the water in LA or TX in late November it is gonna suck bad and you will be miserable and get a bad cold, go in the water in the Midwest or North in late November and you got about 10 minutes to get out or you are dead!!! A boat that is floating you can stand or sit in in your waders and try to get help or drift to shore, a boat that sinks and you will be trying to strip out of the waders and get ready to start swimming before you go numb and drift asleep and drowned.

The Coast Guard is still trying to restrict the sale of commercial hulls for recreational use, but to date they have not been able to enforce much. I think the day will come in the not so distant future when they will start cracking down in the sale of commercial hulls. I think the insurance industry will be the first ones to make this an issue, so far they don't seem to care about commercial vs. floatation, but I have seen a handful of the bigger companies writing exclusions on home owners and boat policies for commercial rated boat hulls with a commercial policy rider that they charge more for. Never saw that until the last few years. So if you do get a commercial hull and use it for personal recreation, check to make sure you are covered.

Hope this is helpful in contempating you next hull.

PW

Author:  dguidry [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Wooden boats float. No need for flotation. Just sayin...

Author:  autogateman [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  dguidry [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  autogateman [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  OwenDickeson [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  oncall [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....


Author:  idabilly [ Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Good post, muddoctor.

Where we hunt the air temps in Nov-Jan are often in the twenties, teens or sometimes in the single digits. Water temps go down to the 30s in these conditions. We cross a fair amount of big water to get back to our spots. I will never run a boat without flotation and a 2000 GPH bilge pump. As a matter of fact, I have had some pucker factor moments when big water and 30 mph winds with temps in the teens and a frozen bilge / bilge pump plus a four mile run separated me from the launch. No way I am running that gauntlet without flotation.

Author:  Woodiebuster [ Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

Would you rather replace foam if it ever gets water logged, or buy a whole new rig if it sinks? That is if you are lucky enough to live.

Author:  meterman3 [ Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not a new topic.....

sometimes u cant replace the foam its welded in unless ya break welds clean out the pour in re weld use new pour in

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