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 Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build 
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build

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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:38 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Dat's a pretty good plan. Having quality equipment is better than new, but new is still much better than old.
Backwater is solid and they ride well. Heard plenty of good things about durability too.
Do yourself a favor and get the shorter one. I have a crawfish model (shorter shaft) go devil and I would never trade for a long tail.
If you do it mathematically, the long shaft at a 15 degree angle translates into an approximate 5 percent linear power loss, while the short shaft would be at around 20 degrees which would translate to 13 percent power loss. Being I run at 18 mph, I would be running 19 even with the long shaft and 20.6 perfectly parallel. Not a noticeable difference.
My motor beats the hell outta me now, the long shaft with a longer lever would be much worse. Also much harder to turn due to this.
You also account the foot and a half extra with the longer one. This can put you into tighter situations. And youu need more space to place the prop to turn.
Plus having this extra sticking out while it's on the trailer could be more hazardous if it doesnt spin around into the boat (mine doesnt).
A long tail isn't meant for speed, its meant to go anywhere. Knowing how bad mine wears me out trying to throw me outta da boat, I wouldnt want any longer lever arm to increase the torque to allow it to beat my ass more...
It is all opinion and where you're riding. Dis is just my 2 cents!


Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:51 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
The overall weight of the boat and cargo affects it much more than the length of the shaft.
Also the boat's hull design and how much water it displaces and it's drag coefficient.
Get a chance to try a short and long shaft. Hit a stump/ try to pick it up out of grass and lillies/ push it in mud/ turn/ect.. you'll feel the difference.


Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:43 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:54 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Well, I'm going to try to get this train back on track.

I'm going to update the progress of my boat and motor build on this forum thread. If not only to serve for my own enjoyment, but possibly for someone else to get some references for their own setup.

I have a 14x42 Allweld, with open center and a deck at the front. I got through last year with a 25hp Evinrude. I purchased a new 22hp Predator V-Twin via harbor freights website. The engine list for $699.00. A 25% discount dropped it to $524. Taxes and shipping put me at $575 shipped to the door.

I was looking for a budget mud motor bulid after getting introduced to duck hunting a few months ago. I was going to go with a 13-16hp Predator and a SPS Thai style long tail. I found the bigger motor, and decided to to go with that - leaving it possible to switch over to a bigger boat down the road. I was still going to go with the Swamp Runner SPS style kit.

Getting on this forum changed my opinion. The list price on the Swamp Runner was $699. The guys here at MMT turned me onto Backwater. The cost was much higher than I planned on spending, at $1900 plus shipping. Whats another 1200 bucks when I will potentially get so much more for my money. Going to put buying the drive kit to the side for a month or two, and then I'll order it and be on my way. I have decided to go with the Blackwater SWOMP 23 (http://www.backwaterinc.com/swomp-23.html) with a 59" shaft. The shortness of the setup and ability to get through tighter places a little easier is my reason for the decision. I still have to talk to the guys over at the company once more before my decision is final.

So for now my focus turns to getting my boat is prestine hunting condition. I have some some more welding and fabrication on the front deck to finish converting the close area under the deck into some storage. Hope to get the gas tank and battery moved up to the front of the boat.

Ive got the boat empty, and scuffed up. After my fab work is finished, I'm going to wipe it down, put some fresh paint, and a slick coat on the bottom.

Still havent chose a hull color yet. I did decide to go with Gator Glide G2. Had a chat with Frog from Gator Glide, and he was very helpful. I'm going to order some GG Basecoat and G2 here tonight. Im on a night shift for a few more weeks, and after that I'll get back to the boat with some before and after photos.

Thanks for the advice and opinions from you guys so far. I think I will enjoy this webforum.

Robert

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Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:04 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:23 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
The gas/battery in the front will help a lot with weight distribution, walking space, and a little more speed.
Make sure you have the weight in the front even or it may vere to one side. Mine does with very little weight imbalance.
A 12v fuel pump is a good option although not always necessary. Stay under 5 psi. I got mine from Oriellys for 50 bucks.
The regular fuel pumps were designed to pump parallel, not against gravity. This with the tank in the front puts a strain on the pump.
When suction is perfect, you mostly won't have issues. However, you get a pinhole in your hose or a loose fitting you're going to have suction problems. With a fuel pump you also don't need a primer bulb.
I have my negative on the battery and my positive on a metal clip used to hold papers that I connected the wire to and clip it on the positive terminal when I start running. A better option which I'll do this week is to hook the positive to your key relay so it turns on when you turn your key. The pump i have also has a filter on it. That's always a plus.
Under 5 psi won't give enough pressure to damage your mechanical fuel pump.


Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:28 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
So the designers of the best long tail are wrong when they recommend a 72" for a tall transom and a 59" for a short. I am confused.

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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:06 am
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Post Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:55 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Are you sure?


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Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:42 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build

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Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:23 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Came in today, about a week after ordering. Might have it setup and running on the bench this weekend.


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Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Looking forward to you getting this thing mounted on a frame!

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Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:19 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build

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Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:43 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build


Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:05 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
A few thoughts; these things are super addictive. If you have had this much fun researching and making plans, you are going to have a stupid grin on your face that won't go away for a week after your first run with your set up. I would liken this to losing one's virginity. Don't worry it's normal. Just be prepared to have two kinds of friends going forward- Mud motor friends, and then a bunch of people who used to seem a whole lot more fun and don't seem interested in your modifications and improvements, or going for a ride to new place every other day! Finally, WEAR your kill switch 100% of the time forever, all the cool kids are doing it. Don't be that guy in the disgusting photos taken in the emergency room or morgue. I can't afford to keep replacing my keyboard because I threw up on it, because you didn't wear your kill switch.
Also a life jacket when getting started!!! NO JOKE
Plan on getting a stand up bar of some type- they can be welded, or attached to a rib with threaded rivets and bolts. There's a little bit of a learning curve to running a longtail, so go someplace where there are not a lot of people or obstacles and screw around a while. You will wear out props, unless you only run open deep water. It makes sense to keep an extra prop and nuts around so you're not SOL a few days before what could be an epic hunt. Nobody needs that kind of stress, so save up again after your initial purchase and get a spare prop. I hunt a rocky river that's out of town, so I actually keep a spare prop on an extra shaft in my truck so I don't blow a trip if I hit a rock going wide open.

Lastly, there is a tilt switch that comes on a longtail, that means you must push down on the handle and lift the prop out of the water in order to start the motor. I have witnessed more than one person think something is broken their first time out because they forgot about the tilt switch.
If you call any manufacturer and they find out you forgot about the tilt switch, it goes on your permanent record for the rest of your life. It can make it tough to get a job, a loan, etc.
SO, if your motor doesn't start for some reason, check the tilt switch, kill switch and battery before calling to ask for help!
Have fun and keep us posted

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Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:16 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build

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Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:17 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Well, this started back in March. I bought the 670 and its been sitting since. I have a pile of parts for the motor and boat sitting right next to it. Finally bit the bullet, and ordered my Backwater kit last week. It should be in any day now. Back to building the boat, and getting the motor put together. Hopefully be on the water Thanksgiving weekend.


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Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Congratulations! Keep us posted and make sure to give us a review!

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Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:56 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Maiden voyage. Had a few problems, but nothing I cant hammer out. 100% stock motor.

Couldn't run full throttle but for a few seconds, then it would sputter and die. i have the tank at the frint of the boat. i have an electric pump on tbe transom, but it might be made to push and not pull the fuel - I need to check.

Its either starving for fuel, or its a low oil sensor cutting out from the tilt.

Motor feels real strong up to 3000 rpms. Idles a littlr high, 1400, out thr box. Only got 3400. Should have some room to get this up.

I would bump 15/16 at burst of full thottle, and the weiggt not distrubted well yet in the boat.

Found some thick vegetation to get in, and it worked real. from a stop, i could get through some bad stuff. had to work the tiller, but nothing too major. good first day.

quality in the backwater looks great.


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Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:39 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Got the engine cutting out resevoled. Not enough oil when motor was an angle, and moved fuel pump up front.

Solo run with only tank and battery got me 16mph. Engine ran at 3300 in water and 3650 out of water. Engine was mounted in board.

Second run mounted the engine out board. 3 dozen deeks, 2 men, and a decent amount of extra gear, ran 14 mph in deep water on a 30 minute run.

I think there is still room for improvement. Just made it water ready. Will tinker with it more this week.

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Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:17 pm
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Flipped the Versa Mount over to outboard style, and rearranged the weight distribution. I also adjusted the linkage/governor and have about 3700RPM in water, and 3900 out of water. I think this was responsible for most the improvement. New top speed is 22mph solo. I also ran it with my 2 small children and wife, and maintained that 22mph. That was about 180lbs additional weight.

Very happy with the performance and handling. Pushes through thick mud and vegetation. Can't wait to run it with a full hunting load. Pretty soon, I'm going to clean up this post. Write a good review with documenting photos. I have about 2,600 in the drivetrain, and I'm happy with every dollar spent.

I still have some more work to do, and I might be able to squeeze another MPH or two out of it - time will tell. Here are a few photos from the 3rd time out.


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Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:54 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
This thread will be a review of my 22hp predator with a Backwater S.W.O.M.P. Lite 23 frame. I will cleaned it up, and add my documented photos and steps throughout.

I got into duck hunting just a few years ago, and quickly realized my 25hp outboard wouldn’t cut it to get to through some of the prime WMA hunting grounds. I hunted where I could, and rode with friends to where I couldn’t.

My boat is a 14x42 Alweld, with a rear bench, empty middle section, and deck up front. I also have a 3500lb winch, and plenty of LED lighting. On race car scales, the boat rigged (minus engine) weights just under 360 pounds. The engine adds another 180lbs, making the boat/motor come in at 540. Add 200 for me, and we have a 1 man load of 740 pounds. I assume a loaded 2 man hunting load will be around 950. The time came, and I wanted to build a budget motor. I started looking for DIY kits, and the cheaper side of things. I was set on a Thai-style long tail (SPS in particular), but this forum helped me decide to go with a kit from Backwater Inc. I did build a 6.5hp Predator SPS long tail, with great success – but that’s another story.

I ordered a 22hp 670cc Predator from Harbor Freight shipped to my door for $547.00 in March of 2015. It sat in the box, and then on a work bench until November when I had saved the money. In November, I ordered a Backwater Inc. SWOMP lite 23, shipped to the door for just over $1900.00.
After doing some research, I knew of a few things that needed to be done right off the bat. I added a tach - before even starting it for the first time. I have my fuel tank located at the front of my boat. I added a 12v clicker type fuel pump (in line, $15.00), mounted on the transom. It’s tied into the ignition to turn on with the key - if the engine is on, it’s pumping. I haven’t had any problems yet. The factory fuel pump – according to others – wouldn’t keep up at ½+ throttle with the fuel tank located up front.

The first time I started the engine, I already had it mounted up to the frame and on the boat. I originally used the Versa Mount “inboard” style, although I have since changed to outboard style. The inboard style put it too far into the boat, making steering and space rather limited. Out of the box, the engine turned 3650 RPMs out of water, and 3200 RPMS in the water. This put me at 15mph SOLO, with the engine INBOARD. I turned to outboard, and still had the same 15mph – just a lot more room in the boat. I then adjusted the governor and modified the carb/throttle linkage. I managed to set it about 4000rpms OUT of the water, and got right at 3700rpms IN the water. I maxed out solo at 22 mph. I added my wife, and 2 kids (roughly 180lbs) and the speed stayed at 22mph.

There are still some things I’m going to do in the coming weeks. The predator has run strong so far, but I only have 8 hours on it. I’ve changed the oil twice, and no signs of visible wear. I have had an issue with the starter. Occasionally has a grind and doesn’t engage flywheel. I’m thinking it’s an alignment issue, and will investigate it before the next run. I’m going to replace the Chinese spark plugs with a good quality name brand. I’ve order some stainless pieces to build a custom exhaust. I don’t see the stock holding up long to the salt water – but it is SUPER quite. I’ve also order parts to build a less restrictive air intake/filter system.

The holes on the Backwater kit to limit maximum depth seem to be a bit off. There are several adjustment points, and each one changes the depth a pretty good amount. I feel like the motor needs to run slightly shallower, but there isn’t a pin hole to get me to the depth I want. I’ll fab something to account for this and see how it works. I have not adjusted the cavitation plate yet, as it runs how the manual suggest that it should. I do want to install shims to see its effect.

Also, ship time on the Backwater Kit from placing order to my front door was less then 10 days - in the middle of duck season! I spoke to Arlon at Backwater several times on the phone - both before and after my purchase. He was VERY informative, and was able to answer ever question I threw his way.

The Predator engine also arrived in less than a week. I was able to use a 20 or 25% coupon successfully. I did purchase the 2 year warranty. I'm slightly concerned with availably of parts, as no aftermarket exist yet. I believe it is a Honda GX600 series clone, but I don't have much to confirm that yet. I'm hoping some bolt on parts prove to be interchangeable if I ever need them (coils/starter/carbs) - but hopefully that time doesn't come soon. It does seem you can order factory replacement parts from the manufacturer.

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Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:41 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
Sounds good reharbert! I've got a 1542 F&F identical in layout. I'm weighing the 23HP Backwater Swomp, 23HP Backwater Swomp Lite, and the kit with the Predator (identical to yours).

Btw, it's time to modify that signature!

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Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:07 am
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Post Re: Predator 22hp Longtail and Boat build
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