Hey Guys,

Ok, so i have a 2.5 y/o Black male lab, this will be his 2nd full season to hunt. He had a great season and has all the qualities in a lab that you cant teach etc. He s on an e-collar, knows all the basics, hand signals, whistle and has a great drive. The other day we were working on the wagon wheel drill and i decided to get about 2 dozen decoys out in the yard to change it up and that were it started falling apart.

I noticed that when i try and mark him he is just looking all around, I cant get him to steady on my mark no matter how many times i say mark, mark mark!!! Ill take a few steps around and get him to heel again and say mark but when i say back, he starts his zig zag through the yard. I Need Advice.

This is my second dog and ive brought him as far along as i can learning from my past mistakes on my first lab and watching youtube. We both need to go to school to progress to the next level but before i give Brad at Saltgrass Retrievers a call id like to see what useful info i can get from yall !

Ill appreciate any help i can get.... Thanks

How are you throwing marks? Got a bird boy? Winger that makes duck or beeping sound before the throw? My suggestion is to get a bird boy with a white shirt and tell him to get the dog's attention with a "hey hey hey" before the throw. Also, make him hold a bird or bumper in his mouth when marking. This seems to keep their attention on the task a little better. Is this a problem that's just popped up? Kinda odd for a 2.5 yr old dog to do that if he hasn't done it in the past.

First of all a mark and a blind is nowhere near the same thing so why are u telling him to mark and then telling him back sounds like u have a dog that u have created alot of mixed signals and is causing him to be bugging all over the place and u should never put decoys around a wagon wheel drill. It is a repetition drill to keep alot of what ur talking about from happening


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I Dont want this to turn into a pissin match...

I am no pro first of all, no champ blood line or running trials, just looking for some help.

Heel, Sit, Drop, Back when he is on the bumper.

Heel, Sit, Drop, Mark, Back when he needs direction.

when i say mark his eyes are just scanning the whole area, ( Cant get him to focus on my line) then when i send him he will start the zig zagging.

He is having trouble carring over the wagon wheel to a field situation.

Mark means watch the bird fall.

You shouldn't have a line on a mark because he should know where the bird is.

I am not a trainer or anything near it but I think you may have terminology mixed up.

"The other day we were working on the wagon wheel drill and i decided to get
about 2 dozen decoys out in the yard to change it up and that where it started
falling apart."

Why the decoys? What program suggested it was OK to "change up" a teaching drill?

"I noticed that when i try and mark him he is just looking all around, I cant get
him to steady on my mark no matter how many times i say mark, mark mark!!!"

Wagon wheel is a lining drill. There are no "marks" involved. Generally, the dog is taught
to "mark" when someone (or a winger) tosses an object and you send him (on his name)
in most cases to pick up the mark.

In the wagon wheel drill, depending on what word or words you use to communicate with
the dog, the general routine is "heel" (lined up correctly), giving a cue "dead" indicating
a blind and usually dropping a hand (in the correct position) to let him know you agree
and releasing (send) on "back". There are variations in the sequence, but whatever you
use should clearly be different than sending on a "mark" (tossed with an arc to an area of
the fall). He knows where that is at because he saw it (generally).

In a wagon wheel drill on up to running cold blinds, the dog does not know where it is.
The decoys you mentioned did change things up some. However when you are TEACHING,
changing up "things" is NOT a good idea unless you are sure the dog understands and you
are proofing the new skill.

Where did you learn the technique you described in the original post?

The following is video of a lining drill with a young dog in early transition.



The next photo is a more complex lining drill. The dog is lining well and running cold
blinds. The decoys serve as a distraction and tend to proof lining skills.......but only
after running many lining drills and well into basic cold blinds.



Blind running is taught via a process called transition because each step is a small one.
The process in incremental which means each step is designed to make the process
seamless. Ideas like "just want to change things up", "experiment or test are not
conducive to a seamless process. The indicator that you are off base is the dog
becomes confused. Confusion means the trainer has made a mistake.

Find someone that can mentor you.

edit: "He is having trouble carrying over the wagon wheel to a field situation."

All this means is you are moving too fast through transition. It takes several weeks
not a few days and a couple of drills.

Good god I can't understand that run in sentence. I am by no means a English major but a period or 2 would really help.

I really want to understand it but I can't

this is what i want him to do..

A-------------------------------------------B

or
A
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
B


Guess my question should have been "What are some training exercises to help my dog run in a straight line when he cant quiet remember where the last bird is?"

"Throwing him lots and lots of singles will help marking ability
and memory as well."

True statement, but it has nothing to do with the dog's skill level
in running cold blinds. My first dog and I learned how to hunt ducks
by going and carrying a small bag of rocks. WE GOT BY!

Since then, the process of developing a skilled retriever uses a
formal training program. Since I always have more than one dog,
pups are not pushed into hunting until they are "ready".
Ready means completing the following program.

They are trained and do not "learn retrieving skills on the job".

The "Process" of a Sequential Training Program

Basics:
Formal Obedience: Here, Heel, Sit, Remote Sit, Kennel
Sit to Whistle
Force Fetch: Hold
Force Fetch: Ear Pinch
Force Fetch: CC to Fetch
Force Fetch: Walking Fetch
Force Fetch: Stick Fetch
Simple Casting: 3-handed Casting (remote sit)
E-collar conditioning to obedience commands, debolting
Collar Fetch

Pile Work:
Lining and Casting to the Pile (mostly from front/remote sit)
Stick to Pile (1 stick send for every 3-5 free sends; 20-100 yds; mostly remote sends)
Force to Pile with E-collar (1 nick for every 3 or so free sends; up to 100 yards)
Sit to Pile (on the way in and on the way out)
Come in from Pile

Double T:
Teaching the line from baseline to back pile (100 yards)
Forcing the double T line, similar to Force to Pile
Stopping to Pile
Mini, Full, and Double T

Swim-by:
Teaching and then forcing across water to back pile
Stopping, Over Casts, Exits

Basic Marking:
Singles, 50-100 yards, light cover
Hand Deliveries to heel
Strong Steadying w/ Honoring
Simple Land Doubles
Simple conventional De-cheating
Simple Water Doubles
Moderate-to-Long non-cheating Water Marks

Transition:
Pattern Blinds
Blind Drills
Pattern Blinds with Diversions
Elementary Cold Land blinds
Channel Blinds
8-handed casting (Wagon Wheel)
Walking Baseball
Wagon Wheel Lining Drill
No-No Drill
Zig-Zag Drills
Chinese Blinds
Taught/Permanent Blinds
Simple Cold Land Blinds
Cheating Singles (Tune-up)
Taught/Permanent Water Blinds
Simple Cold Water Blinds

Diversion Marks:
Basic Diversion Mark Drill
Taught Blinds with Diversion Marks

I'm no dog trainer, I've had two I trained in the past. They were fair at best. My recent dog is a 2.5 black male, and I've been using Avery's, duck dog basics 1 & 2. He's by no means finished cause my training times aren't as scheduled as they should be, but he's still eager to learn what I ask. Get the vids, you will have the school right at home. Just remember, dogs learn by repetition, be patient, and don't get in a hurry. If he gets confused go back to the point where he wasn't. Also the tighter you work him the more control you have. Simplify the line up with one bumper close to him. Then increase distance, again and again and so forth. Remember small steps, in short burst. He's still got a lot of pup at 2.5, his attention runs out quick

Your right, I failed to say, the line you want him to take in the direction your hand points. I also agree he needs to extend the distance as fast as the dog understands. But in the round the clock drill, you have multiple bumpers in a circle, and fido needs to get the one you point at. If you start this drill with a few bumpers (less to focus on) and a tight circle, you have more control on the dog. As the dog understands, the circle gets bigger, with more bumpers. To make long marks (fido sees the bird fall) use a buddy, only throw single or doubles (unless your pup has a real good memory) and have the friend increase the distance.

Yes, I was only referring to the author using the round the clock drill. In that drill you tell the dog which bumper to get by lining him at heel, and pointing across his head with your hand, and send him by his name, or back depending on if you use white or orange bumpers. It has nothing to do with his marking ability.

I trained one retriever myself with no electronic collar using the techniques in that book called Water Dog. First real hunt, he retrieved every teal we killed which I think was 24. I was one proud dog owner. Things went downhill from there. Don't know what happened but once he decided enough was enough, that was it and no matter how loud I screamed and cursed he wouldn't mark or retrieve. I guess it was because I didn't have the time to reinforce commands frequently enough to make a difference. The next two dogs were professionally trained. The first turned out ok, but my current lab, Rex, is a monster at retrieving. Better get out of the way if there's a duck within 200 yards cause he'll knock you down to get there.

The most important lesson I learned from having these dogs is if you don't have the time to train just about everyday, don't try. You will be doing yourself, the dog, and your hunting partners a disservice.

Obviously you should train his dog, for free. The author asked for suggestions on training his dog. Mine was to get the videos, and it has turn in to a discussion with you on training. I think if the owner has the time, the videos will help.

My someone is Mr right, and gets a little pissy!

Like I said, since obviously you train master hunters, and do it flawlessly, you should offer to train his for him

ARP33:
I strongly suggest getting on a training program. A book!!! There are many very good programs to choose from. Most all the programs I prefer are based off of the Rex Carr method of turning off pressure. Mike Lardy is great stuff but can be confusing to many young trainers. Although I'm not fond of the guy, Evan Graham Smartwork vol 1 is easy to understand and well written. To achieve success training dogs, it is a step by step process which Kwik Labs did an excellent job laying out. If step B is not solid DO NOT move on to C. This is glossing over an important concept which invaribly creates holes in the dog's training. In reading your post I'm guessing there are many, many holes. Get a good book, start from the beginning and learn the game. IMO videos are nice fillins, I own a bunch, but I suggest a book and strongly recommend keeping a log book on your dog's progress. Also, find you a training group and start showing up. They always need bird throwers and you will learn A LOT!! Good luck.