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 lab traing question 
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Post lab traing question
is it really important to ff a dog if all you want is a meat dog?


Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:51 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
I don't have a ton of experience in this. However I did just have my first dog trained and I'm still working with him. He is an excellent retriever and has never been forced fetched. So based on my experience (limited), I would say no.


Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:07 pm
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Post lab traing question
If all you want is the normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it, then no. But then again, most people have never had or seen a performance dog and don’t know what they are missing.

If you plan on following any mainstream method of training to any semi advanced level and want to have a dog that reliably retrieves, and is able to run blinds, then yes, it is an essential building block.

The overwhelming majority of mainstream training methods follow the care based methodology from way back and have morphed into Stawski, Lardy, and Aiken’s methods that probably 98% of pros and serious amateurs today follow with great success. All of those use force fetch as a foundation prior to transition work.



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Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:23 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
I think essential is a strong word here. I think it is going to vary from dog to dog or breed to breed. My English lab was very easy to train without Force fetching. It may be his calm demeanor . He does not break on a shot. HE doesn't even flinch. He won't budge until you tell him to.
he's well on his way to be a great blind retrieving dog. Will he be an absolute Pro? Probably not. He does however impress every other Hunter who have been training dogs that he is come across.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:13 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
I think essential is a strong word here. I think it is going to vary from dog to dog or breed to breed. My English lab was very easy to train without Force fetching. It may be his calm demeanor . He does not break on a shot. HE doesn't even flinch. He won't budge until you tell him to.
he's well on his way to be a great blind retrieving dog. Will he be an absolute Pro? Probably not. He does however impress every other Hunter who have been training dogs that he is come across.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:13 am
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Post lab traing question
JBsuperG wrote:
I think essential is a strong word here. I think it is going to vary from dog to dog or breed to breed. My English lab was very easy to train without Force fetching. It may be his calm demeanor . He does not break on a shot. HE doesn't even flinch. He won't budge until you tell him to.
he's well on his way to be a great blind retrieving dog. Will he be an absolute Pro? Probably not. He does however impress every other Hunter who have been training dogs that he is come across.


So first off, English, British, etc doesn’t mean anything. The methods “British trainers” are often to less exacting standards and don’t have the same success as quickly as American methods.

Second, it’s easy to impress anyone at the boat ramp because the vast majority of dogs at the ramp are garbage. If your dog just known how to sit or kennel it’s already in the upper half, so we can’t use that as evidence to prove or disprove whether something is worthwhile. A petco training class could also likely accomplish the same result. The most empirical manner to asses this is to look at success and speed of obtaining somewhere around a SH or HR title. The dogs who have been FFed (and by extension used mainstream methodologies) far outweighs the successes of those that don’t, and also are able to typically achieve those titles at a much earlier age which proves those methods worth. That is also why the overwhelming majority of pros worth their salt use those methods.

Third, you don’t know what you don’t know, and that’s okay, just keep researching. It is FAR easier to do transition work after force fetch because it transitions much faster into initial lining, and the dogs tend to learn direct and indirect pressure much quicker via the “American process” (which force fetch is basic building block of). This all translates to being able to teach a dog concepts much faster because you have stronger tools at your disposal far earlier in the training process. That is the key here. It is one more tool, that brings around other tools EARLIER in the training process. It may not be required, but to succeed well and on time in any of the 3 aforementioned mainstream methodologies it is a foundational building block.

Please, explain to me why it would not be important in the success of any one of the 3 mainstream methods, not just anecdotal “well my dog didn’t so it must not be important”.

No offense here bud, but you even admitted you don’t have much experience with this (which is evident by the fact that you mention English lab and fell for that marketing scheme). FWIW, years ago, I did too at first until I actually went out and spent time between “British” camps and American HT groups. The quality difference was obvious. I’ve since spent quite a few years with various trainers (used to help one one the weekends for a few years as well as a friend in exchange for help and knowledge).

I do have a pretty fair amount of experience here. I would force fetch a pug if I had one as a pet.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:51 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
Maybe I am missing the point from the original question. From what I can tell it is not a question as to whether a dog should be forced fetched to be a champion or professional dog. The question is asking if you can have a basic bird retrieving dog without force fetching. If that is the intent of the original question then I stand by my statement that you would not need to force fetch that dog.

You are correct. I did mention that I have limited experience in this. However in my teens which was quite some time back I’ve trained two English setters For upland bird hunting. One not such a good dog. The first was very well-trained dog and never force fetched, and she did everything I needed her to do. Now I am currently finishing up my English lab. He hasis never been Force fetched. I am sure that this season he will do a remarkable job. I live where we hunt and I work with him on the water several times a week. He finds frozen ducks, and decoys every time even when I placed them without him knowing. I do not intend to enter him into competitions. Not something I am interested in. But I do intend to hunt very frequently with him and I’m very confident at this stage that he is going to perform well. He’s also good at sitting and going in his kennel. That alone apparently makes him not garbage.

As far as English lab versus American lab. I do disagree that it does not make a difference. English labs tend to be much more calm compared to the American labs. This does make a difference when training.

Going back to the original question. I interpret it to be that person asking wants a basic retrieving dog. If I am wrong and he wants the dog to be a competition level professional dog then perhaps you were correct about force fetching being essential.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:17 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
We can disagree about the English vs American lab issue but I’ve seen far more English that’s lab are a dud than equal bloodlines from American. The “calmer” piece does not factor in at all.

As for a basic gun dog, no I still stand by my assertion, regardless of the level. One of the MOST important factors in determining success is the quality of program that OP chooses. American mainstream methods are by far the most comprehensive, readily available, and easy to follow, and would be most beneficial for the OP which in turns gives him the highest % odds of a successful duck dog regardless of level it is trained to. There just aren’t as comprehensive or standardized methods available for the other methods, which significantly impedes success of an entry level trainer.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:41 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
I would say that if you are like the majority of duck hunters that don't give a damn about hunt tests and titles that there is no need to force fetch a dog.
One of the dogs I hunt with has never had any other training besides playing fetch with a tennis ball. The dog lays on the floor of the boat until it is called upon to make retrieves. Every single retrieve I have ever seen this dog make has been a blind retrieve. We simply point him in the right direction and he goes and finds the ducks.
When this dog isn't hunting he is laying on my buddy's sofa.
As far as British vs. American breeding standards, from the dogs I have been around I would rather a dog that comes from British standard breeding. They tend to be much calmer dogs and easily trained. The American standard breed dogs I have been exposed to were much more high strung.
Calmer does play a factor when you are looking for a dog that will be a hunting partner but also a family pet. Not everyone that owns a lab wants a hunt test dog.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:17 am
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Post lab traing question
No it doesn’t. I’d guarantee my performance bred American lab is probably the most calm and quiet lab you’ve ever seen in the house or in the blind, but that is because he is trained to do so, not because he is just lazy. On the other side though, he has drive which makes him far more trainable than a lazy dog which is essential for transition and beyond.

I’ve seen very few American labs that are not easily able to be very calm and dead silent in the blind and in the house, most people just flat out can’t train a dog. I have both a performance pedigree lab and GSP in my house, neither have ever barked, and neither do anything but lay around. That’s not dumb luck, that’s discipline.

What happens when you buy into the B.S. Milner “British lab” marketing and you get a high energy one? Send it back? No, you learn to actually train a dog......

And I don’t run hunt tests either, but I have trained with easily 200+ labs both British and American.

On the other side, I’ve seen far too many British labs that have zero drive. Those same dogs may be fine in the house, but they are garbage at hunting. You can always find anecdotal evidence to the contrary but the trend I, as well as MANY pros I’ve trained with agree to that as a norm.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:40 am
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Post lab traing question
Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:41 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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You are simply being arrogant. The OP asked if it is necessary to do so. Apparently it is not essential as there are dogs who retrieve without it. This is not a post about weather and English lab has more Drive than an American lab.

My only argument is that you claimed it is essential to do so for a dog that the man just wants to retrieve his ducks. My evidence against weather it is essential or not is my experience from my. they function as the op wants without Force fetching.

I will sleep easy knowing that my lazy English lab is going to perform exactly how I need him to this season. Force fetch or not.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:53 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
We can disagree about the English vs American lab issue but I’ve seen far more English that’s lab are a dud than equal bloodlines from American. The “calmer” piece does not factor in at all.

As for a basic gun dog, no I still stand by my assertion, regardless of the level. One of the MOST important factors in determining success is the quality of program that OP chooses. American mainstream methods are by far the most comprehensive, readily available, and easy to follow, and would be most beneficial for the OP which in turns gives him the highest % odds of a successful duck dog regardless of level it is trained to. There just aren’t as comprehensive or standardized methods available for the other methods, which significantly impedes success of an entry level trainer.


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You have some pretty strong opinions on this subject, so I take it you are a professional dog trainer?

Back to the original topic, NO ff is not necessary unless YOUR DOG needs it.

My GSP has NEVER been ff'd and will retrieve, without break, come back to heel, and never drop a bumper, duck, toy blah blah blah. And the kicker to all this? I dont even have to call him back. I tap him on the head, he makes his retrieve and comes right back to a tight heel without as much as a whistle blow or word from me.

My englsih lab on the other hand, had to be FF'd and she hates it. To the point where we have wasted 2 months so far trying to make her do something she doesnt want to do. Does that mean she wont retrieve? Absolutely not. She doesnt break, absolutely loves to swim and retrieve, and does it well. She rarely drops bumpers and ducks, NEVER breaks, and is a lovey dovey sofa dog who will melt your heart in the off season.

My point is, you need to know YOUR dog, its behavior and its capabilities. There is absolutely nothing required in any step of any training process.

Before the season starts my gsp will be shr jh titled, and my lab, who has ten times the blood line and cost way more than my gsp does, will be a hunting dog. She will never title, never amount to anything in the dog world, BUT will fetch every duck I send her on. And guess what? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Dont listen to the debbie downers, and know it alls who think that every dog has to go through every step of every process. A REAL trainer knows a dog and its limitations, and trains accordingly. Have fun with your dog, learn its limits and keep it happy. If your dog wants to go through ff then by all means do it, but dont be disouraged to not do it just because its not the cool thing to do, or rejection from your dog. If your dog fetches your ducks and you are happy with the results, then nothing else matters.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:01 am
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Post lab traing question
JBsuperG wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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You are simply being arrogant. The OP asked if it is necessary to do so. Apparently it is not essential as there are dogs who retrieve without it. This is not a post about weather and English lab has more Drive than an American lab.

My only argument is that you claimed it is essential to do so for a dog that the man just wants to retrieve his ducks. My evidence against weather it is essential or not is my experience from my. they function as the op wants without Force fetching.

I will sleep easy knowing that my lazy English lab is going to perform exactly how I need him to this season. Force fetch or not.


Not being arrogant, just the only one here that has explained my position vs simply saying “I don’t need it because I didn’t do it”.

As well, reread my first post. I said it was essential if you wanted to take your dog to any semi-advanced level.

As I said

“As for a basic gun dog, no I still stand by my assertion, regardless of the level. One of the MOST important factors in determining success is the quality of program that OP chooses. American mainstream methods are by far the most comprehensive, readily available, and easy to follow, and would be most beneficial for the OP which in turns gives him the highest % odds of a successful duck dog regardless of level it is trained to. There just aren’t as comprehensive or standardized methods available for the other methods, which significantly impedes success of an entry level trainer.”

Force fetch is a standard step in the mainstream methods of training. It is a tool that sides in development and helps tremendously with transition world.

Let me reiterate: If you want to follow a comprehensive training program to ensure you have the BEST chance at training a successful duck dog (regardless of the level you train to), you should follow a comprehensive program and not miss a step. FF is one of those steps therefore you should do it.

No one has yet come out and explained what force fetch does and why it is used in training. If you can’t explain that, then you can’t explain why you shouldn’t force fetch.



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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:08 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
You're correct that I am not a pro and that I do not train dogs for a living. I actually don't even have a retriever at the moment because I work offshore and wouldn't be able to spend the amount of time it takes to properly train a dog because I refuse to pay someone else the ridiculous amount of money that the majority of trainers charge.

I have trained dogs in the past though and I firmly believe that it is not necessary to force fetch train a dog.
Why? Because I simply don't care to have a top notch dog that everyone is jealous of. All I want is a dog that will retrieve ducks and doesn't destroy everything in my house.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:11 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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Nobody owes you an explanation.

Your problem lies in the fact that you think that any dog that cant force fetch is inferior, and in your exact words, "crappy".

You really need to take the hate down a notch. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dog that knows sit and kennel, never been trained then goes out and retrieves ducks. So what if its not ff'd. They are called retrievers because they retrieve, by your exacting standards we should rename them labrador force fetchers.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:14 am
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Post lab traing question
hvfc6040 wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
We can disagree about the English vs American lab issue but I’ve seen far more English that’s lab are a dud than equal bloodlines from American. The “calmer” piece does not factor in at all.

As for a basic gun dog, no I still stand by my assertion, regardless of the level. One of the MOST important factors in determining success is the quality of program that OP chooses. American mainstream methods are by far the most comprehensive, readily available, and easy to follow, and would be most beneficial for the OP which in turns gives him the highest % odds of a successful duck dog regardless of level it is trained to. There just aren’t as comprehensive or standardized methods available for the other methods, which significantly impedes success of an entry level trainer.


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You have some pretty strong opinions on this subject, so I take it you are a professional dog trainer?

Back to the original topic, NO ff is not necessary unless YOUR DOG needs it.

My GSP has NEVER been ff'd and will retrieve, without break, come back to heel, and never drop a bumper, duck, toy blah blah blah. And the kicker to all this? I dont even have to call him back. I tap him on the head, he makes his retrieve and comes right back to a tight heel without as much as a whistle blow or word from me.

My englsih lab on the other hand, had to be FF'd and she hates it. To the point where we have wasted 2 months so far trying to make her do something she doesnt want to do. Does that mean she wont retrieve? Absolutely not. She doesnt break, absolutely loves to swim and retrieve, and does it well. She rarely drops bumpers and ducks, NEVER breaks, and is a lovey dovey sofa dog who will melt your heart in the off season.

My point is, you need to know YOUR dog, its behavior and its capabilities. There is absolutely nothing required in any step of any training process.

Before the season starts my gsp will be shr jh titled, and my lab, who has ten times the blood line and cost way more than my gsp does, will be a hunting dog. She will never title, never amount to anything in the dog world, BUT will fetch every duck I send her on. And guess what? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Dont listen to the debbie downers, and know it alls who think that every dog has to go through every step of every process. A REAL trainer knows a dog and its limitations, and trains accordingly. Have fun with your dog, learn its limits and keep it happy. If your dog wants to go through ff then by all means do it, but dont be disouraged to not do it just because its not the cool thing to do, or rejection from your dog. If your dog fetches your ducks and you are happy with the results, then nothing else matters.


Used to work with a bunch of them as a hobby. I build aerospace systems as a profession.

Force fetch is NOT just about retrieving. It is NOT the antidote to a dog that won’t retrieve and it is concerning you don’t recognize that.

Most any dog can be force fetched, there are multiple ways to do it that can be applied to the temperament and drive of any dog. Shoot me a PM I’d actually like to talk with you about it to you can learn to do it properly and not shut your dog down or take away momentum.

Again, what is the purpose of FF, and how does it play in to the progression of a dogs development? With that being said, what then is lost if you don’t FF?


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:16 am
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Post lab traing question
hvfc6040 wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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Nobody owes you an explanation.

Your problem lies in the fact that you think that any dog that cant force fetch is inferior, and in your exact words, "crappy".

You really need to take the hate down a notch. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dog that knows sit and kennel, never been trained then goes out and retrieves ducks. So what if its not ff'd. They are called retrievers because they retrieve, by your exacting standards we should rename them labrador force fetchers.


I guarantee I can force fetch your dog. I’ve seen plenty of dogs of all shapes, colors and temperaments be FFed and I guarantee you didn’t try the right methods in the right succession to ensure success and momentum with your dog. Did you ear pinch, jowl pinch, e-collar, toe pinch, de-bug, etc to ensure your dog clearly knew what was happening and make sure you tailored your approach to its own identity?

No crappy is 90% of the dogs I see at the ramp that bark, are disobedient, break, cant run multiples and can’t run well handled blinds. If they can’t do that, they aren’t worth having in the boat and can be a safety risk.

There is no hate, I just don’t like when people have an incomplete opinion on something yet scream it as fact. The fact is, no one here has actually explained why people FF and what is gained or lost by not following that process. If you want to help OP, provide an informed opinion. I have.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:18 am
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Post lab traing question
This is the issue with dog training discussions. Few people understand training, and everyone gets emotionally invested because they think it’s an attack on their dog or their ability to train.

I’d like to have a factual (non-anecdotal) discussion about this. That’s why I keep asking those of you who disagree to actually provide why FF is used, and what is gained or lost with the choice to or not to FF.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:24 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
Since you’ve been a dick about this I’ll jump down to your level for a moment. The op asked if it was necessary for a meat dog. Which it isn’t. There are many dogs out there that have owners who are 110% pleased with the fact that the dogs retrieves every duck that they shoot. Hell we have a guy on our lease that puts a hand full of rocks in the boat to throw for his dogs but guess what the dumbass dog gets every damn duck.
So basically what I’m saying is the hell with your opinion because that’s all it is.
Plan and simple force fetch is not always necessary for every dog.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:43 am
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Post lab traing question
fishaholic82 wrote:
Since you’ve been a dick about this I’ll jump down to your level for a moment. The op asked if it was necessary for a meat dog. Which it isn’t. There are many dogs out there that have owners who are 110% pleased with the fact that the dogs retrieves every duck that they shoot. Hell we have a guy on our lease that puts a hand full of rocks in the boat to throw for his dogs but guess what the dumbass dog gets every damn duck.
So basically what I’m saying is the hell with your opinion because that’s all it is.
Plan and simple force fetch is not always necessary for every dog.


Your panties got into a wad super fast dude. Relax. As I said, I’m trying to actually have a factually based conversation, not an emotionally charged rant session.

It looks like you haven’t slowed down enough to actually read and understand what I am saying. Take a deep breath and read this entire thread again.

I’ve said this in two previous posts, but I will say this again, if the OP wants the BEST chance of having a good dog that meets any level of his expectations, he needs to follow a proven, comprehensive, mainstream program as best he can. Those programs will involve FF as an essential building block.

Not sure what you aren’t seeing here. I have never said it was required for a dog to pick up a bird, what I have continuously said is to reduce the risk and ensure the best odds of your dog being able to what you want, FF will be involved in that process. If you want to accept risk and potentially have a dog that doesn’t perform, then you can veer away from proven methods.

You still haven’t answered my question though.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:48 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
This is the issue with dog training discussions. Few people understand training, and everyone gets emotionally invested because they think it’s an attack on their dog or their ability to train.

I’d like to have a factual (non-anecdotal) discussion about this. That’s why I keep asking those of you who disagree to actually provide why FF is used, and what is gained or lost with the choice to or not to FF.


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I’d go out on a limb and say the problem is that some people like to think their gods gift to training and think that if someone doesn’t follow their methods of training that they’re doing it wrong.

This ain’t cooking where you can follow the same recipe every time and get the same results. It’s damn dogs for crying out loud.

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Post lab traing question
fishaholic82 wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
This is the issue with dog training discussions. Few people understand training, and everyone gets emotionally invested because they think it’s an attack on their dog or their ability to train.

I’d like to have a factual (non-anecdotal) discussion about this. That’s why I keep asking those of you who disagree to actually provide why FF is used, and what is gained or lost with the choice to or not to FF.


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I’d go out on a limb and say the problem is that some people like to think their gods gift to training and think that if someone doesn’t follow their methods of training that they’re doing it wrong.

This ain’t cooking where you can follow the same recipe every time and get the same results. It’s damn dogs for crying out loud.


Work on your reading comprehension dude. I literally went through a paragraph explaining how to do exactly that for this one step in a dogs development. I’ve articulated my point quite clearly, but I really don’t think you’re reading it and understanding it.

Take a deep breath, go back, and re-read exactly what I’ve said instead of getting emotionally charged and skimming for the narrative you’re looking for.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:54 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
You've got me all fucked up man. I'm not mad and my panties ain't in a bunch in fact I prefer going commando. You said it was necessary to have a good dog. Myself and others have said it isn't.
Every dog is different and that means that what works for one dog either may not work or won't be necessary for another.
Yet here you are still demanding that you can't have a "good" dog without force fetch being a part of the training.

You tend to come off as the college grad engineer type that knows every damn thing because you read it in a book that said the only way something can be good is if its done a certain way. Get some real world experience and come out from behind your book and you would realize that there are many different ways to many different things effectively.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:47 am
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Post lab traing question
fishaholic82 wrote:
You've got me all fucked up man. I'm not mad and my panties ain't in a bunch in fact I prefer going commando.
Every dog is different and that means that what works for one dog either may not work or won't be necessary for another.


You tend to come off as the college grad engineer type that knows every damn thing because you read it in a book that said the only way something can be good is if its done a certain way. Get some real world experience and come out from behind your book and you would realize that there are many different ways to many different things effectively.


That was classic dude.

“You said it was necessary to have a good dog. Myself and others have said it isn't. Yet here you are still demanding that you can't have a "good" dog without force fetch being a part of the training”- go back and reread again. Still missing it.

So somehow having a college education, and also having spent years training with professionals and very serious amateurs somehow disqualified me from having “real world experience” that is relevant here?

You’re mad that I think “the only way something can be good is if its done a certain way” yet I offered 3 different well established and proven training methodologies that have produced tens of thousands of proven dogs, and also provided a handful of different methods to force fetch a dog that didn’t handle one method well?

I’m all for a good debate, but come one man....



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Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:41 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
Having hunted with blueskys dog, I can say only good things. And dispite this I continue to argue why I want a Boykin, but he explains what difference I can expect.This is because i have only hunted with labs, buddies have kennels etc. What i can say if it's a gun dog Ff is in the dog's tool bag. To the OP I will say you said good gun dog, that description is different to different people. The pros will demand ff, does that mean they are wrong too? Blue does not in any means state he is a pro, he is knowledgeable on the subject, but not overbearing. You asked for an opinion, he gave you his, take it or leave it.

In the end it is your dog, however it is up to, to give the dog your best for it to do its job effectively.

If you get butthurt because I refer to a gun dog as a tool, oh well...

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:48 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
If all you want is the normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it, then no. But then again, most people have never had or seen a performance dog and don’t know what they are missing.

If you plan on following any mainstream method of training to any semi advanced level and want to have a dog that reliably retrieves, and is able to run blinds, then yes, it is an essential building block.

Ok these were your words not mine. Just so you know I never said it was horrible or couldn't be useful. I said it isn't necessary for all dogs. Especially meat dogs that will never see any type of activity besides being a tool used to keep us from having to retrieve our own ducks and sleeping on the sofa.

I've never been one to follow anything that is mainstream, but to each their own. Follow whatever practice you want but to say that it has to be done in order to have a good retriever is simply ignorant.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:58 pm
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Post lab traing question
You’re a tool though.

Edit to add that was meant for dmax, because he is.


Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:00 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
fishaholic82 wrote:
If all you want is the normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it, then no. But then again, most people have never had or seen a performance dog and don’t know what they are missing.

If you plan on following any mainstream method of training to any semi advanced level and want to have a dog that reliably retrieves, and is able to run blinds, then yes, it is an essential building block.

Ok these were your words not mine. Just so you know I never said it was horrible or couldn't be useful. I said it isn't necessary for all dogs. Especially meat dogs that will never see any type of activity besides being a tool used to keep us from having to retrieve our own ducks and sleeping on the sofa.

I've never been one to follow anything that is mainstream, but to each their own. Follow whatever practice you want but to say that it has to be done in order to have a good retriever is simply ignorant.


Or definitions of normal vs crappy are clearly different.

My first sentence defining a crappy dog “normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it”
- I said clearly that you don’t need force fetch for that.

I later said clearly that for a dog that does any semi advanced work FF is an important step to get there. Here is “semi advanced work”. - singles and doubles to 75 yards, handling off diversions or poison birds, basic blinds.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:06 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
fishaholic82 wrote:
If all you want is the normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it, then no. But then again, most people have never had or seen a performance dog and don’t know what they are missing.

If you plan on following any mainstream method of training to any semi advanced level and want to have a dog that reliably retrieves, and is able to run blinds, then yes, it is an essential building block.

Ok these were your words not mine. Just so you know I never said it was horrible or couldn't be useful. I said it isn't necessary for all dogs. Especially meat dogs that will never see any type of activity besides being a tool used to keep us from having to retrieve our own ducks and sleeping on the sofa.

I've never been one to follow anything that is mainstream, but to each their own. Follow whatever practice you want but to say that it has to be done in order to have a good retriever is simply ignorant.


Or definitions of normal vs crappy are clearly different.

My first sentence defining a crappy dog “normal crappy lab that people have that breaks on shot, sometimes retrieves a mark, and that’s about it”
- I said clearly that you don’t need force fetch for that.

I later said clearly that for a dog that does any semi advanced work FF is an important step to get there. Here is “semi advanced work”. - singles and doubles to 75 yards, handling off diversions or poison birds, basic blinds.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:14 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
Ok I'll explain my definition of normal.
A dog that when sent out on a retrieve it actually comes back with the duck.
A dog that when sitting in the blind doesn't chew up my shit, constantly walk around, or bark at black birds and seagulls when they fly by.
A dog that will leave on a direction that it is pointed in and listen to either verbal or whistle commands during a retrieve.
Hell I don't even mind throwing rocks every now and then.

What makes a crappy dog for me.
A dog that is high strung and has more energy than a room full of meth heads.
A dog that chews everything in sight.
A dog that shits in my house or pisses in the blind.

Look I'm sure that FF has worked great for you, but to say that it is required for all dogs to be good is just simply not a true statement. The op is wanting a meat dog not a champion.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:17 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
fishaholic82 wrote:
Ok I'll explain my definition of normal.
A dog that when sent out on a retrieve it actually comes back with the duck.
A dog that when sitting in the blind doesn't chew up my shit, constantly walk around, or bark at black birds and seagulls when they fly by.
A dog that will leave on a direction that it is pointed in and listen to either verbal or whistle commands during a retrieve.
Hell I don't even mind throwing rocks every now and then.

What makes a crappy dog for me.
A dog that is high strung and has more energy than a room full of meth heads.
A dog that chews everything in sight.
A dog that shits in my house or pisses in the blind.

Look I'm sure that FF has worked great for you, but to say that it is required for all dogs to be good is just simply not a true statement. The op is wanting a meat dog not a champion.


Whether one agrees with this argument or not this was easily the funniest post of the month. Anytime you can compare a duck dog to a meth head that's a good time


Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:24 pm
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Post lab traing question
And if he wants a meat dog at any level, his best bet is to follow any one of the 3 aforementioned mainstream programs (which use FF early on) to increase his odds of having a good dog. Not sure how else to say that. Even if he just wants a dog that is steady and does singles, there is still a proven high % success rate to get there. Don’t reinvent the wheel and introduce risk!

I will add this though, it is dangerous for a dog to release a cripple before it is in the hand of the owner. That leads to a dog chasing a crip around guns in a boat or blind. Force fetch does help prevent that.

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:25 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
Well blue you are coming along. You went from saying it is essential to saying it is the best bet.

I knew you'd see it my way! :lol:


Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:30 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
Look Blue I tell you what, since I personally am without a dog right now you can bring your dog over to our lease this season for a few hunts and you can try to prove to me that it is a must to FF.
I'm getting tired of having to retrieve my own ducks anyway!

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:44 pm
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Post lab traing question
fishaholic82 wrote:
Look Blue I tell you what, since I personally am without a dog right now you can bring your dog over to our lease this season for a few hunts and you can try to prove to me that it is a must to FF.
I'm getting tired of having to retrieve my own ducks anyway!


Location and good food dependent. If you’re in a good spot, we can talk.

You also have to be funner than dmax. He’s my current hunting buddy and he spends all his time getting bronchitis and puking on his boat.


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:45 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
JBsuperG wrote:
Well blue you are coming along. You went from saying it is essential to saying it is the best bet.

I knew you'd see it my way! :lol:


Nah y’all are just learning to read now! Haha


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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:45 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
A tool with a purpose! Smashing shit haha

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Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:47 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
I can bring my nonforce fetched dog. That is if I can get his lazy ass off the couch! :lol:


Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:47 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
We hunt in Dulac. It ain't the greatest place but you are damn near guaranteed to get your limit of dogris every trip!
As far as food goes, its always good. I didn't get 260lbs by accident. In fact we have a blind on our lease that is basically built for cooking and relaxing. It was built inside of a patch of rosos.

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