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 lab traing question 
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
hvfc6040 wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
Still, neither of you have explained WHY you don’t need to force fetch, other than simply saying you don’t need to.

What does force fetch do, and why would you not need it to train to whatever your standard is?

Still have not heard either of you be able to articulate that point likely because you don’t know how to train a dog nor understand why or where it falls into their training pipeline.


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Nobody owes you an explanation.

Your problem lies in the fact that you think that any dog that cant force fetch is inferior, and in your exact words, "crappy".

You really need to take the hate down a notch. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dog that knows sit and kennel, never been trained then goes out and retrieves ducks. So what if its not ff'd. They are called retrievers because they retrieve, by your exacting standards we should rename them labrador force fetchers.


I guarantee I can force fetch your dog. I’ve seen plenty of dogs of all shapes, colors and temperaments be FFed and I guarantee you didn’t try the right methods in the right succession to ensure success and momentum with your dog. Did you ear pinch, jowl pinch, e-collar, toe pinch, de-bug, etc to ensure your dog clearly knew what was happening and make sure you tailored your approach to its own identity?

No crappy is 90% of the dogs I see at the ramp that bark, are disobedient, break, cant run multiples and can’t run well handled blinds. If they can’t do that, they aren’t worth having in the boat and can be a safety risk.

There is no hate, I just don’t like when people have an incomplete opinion on something yet scream it as fact. The fact is, no one here has actually explained why people FF and what is gained or lost by not following that process. If you want to help OP, provide an informed opinion. I have.


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Thats your problem, you ASSume too much.

Youre so stuck on this "mainstream" crap that you cant understand the simple fact that not all dogs will FF. Period. And to top it off, you DONT HAVE TO FF to have a retrieving dog. Does it help? No doubt about it. Is it required? Absolutely not.

Just because a dog wont ff doesnt mean jack shit. My lab (who we have tried every method of FF you mention and then some) will be a retrieving machine. Her obedience is top notch, retrieves are almost flawless. What more could a duck hunter want?

If I send my dog on a retrieve, it makes the retrieve, brings my duck to me and holds it for 10 minutes until I tell it otherwise, and has never completed a FF program, where is the issue?


Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:56 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
Good mouth habits are a nice side benefit of FF'ing, but the reason dogs are FF'ed is primarily to lay the groundwork for running good cold blinds.

I'm not getting into the "meat dog" versus "competition dog" debate except to say most of the dogs I see out in the field could be better trained.


Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:08 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
CatSquirrel wrote:
Good mouth habits are a nice side benefit of FF'ing, but the reason dogs are FF'ed is primarily to lay the groundwork for running good cold blinds.


It took dozens of posts for someone to answer the question I kept posting. Thanks.


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Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:38 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
CatSquirrel wrote:
Good mouth habits are a nice side benefit of FF'ing, but the reason dogs are FF'ed is primarily to lay the groundwork for running good cold blinds.


It took dozens of posts for someone to answer the question I kept posting. Thanks.


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You’re welcome bluesky.

Is FF strictly necessary for a lot of “meat dogs”? Probably not. But, most hunters want a dog that simply goes out and gets their birds back to them by any means possible, so for them it’s not worth the time to FF. And I can understand that point of view. Not that I agree with it, but I can understand.

Let’s face it. Most hunters break their dogs out a few weeks before hunting season, throw a few marks, maybe run some rudimentary blinds, and then call it good. If that works for them, who am I to argue?

Most dogs that pick up lots of birds for a living (guide dogs, HT dogs, and FT dogs) by necessity have to be FF’ed because they have to run good crisp blinds with a lot of suction.

In the end, it’s really about what you, as a retriever owner, are happy with.


Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:58 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
CatSquirrel wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
CatSquirrel wrote:
Good mouth habits are a nice side benefit of FF'ing, but the reason dogs are FF'ed is primarily to lay the groundwork for running good cold blinds.


It took dozens of posts for someone to answer the question I kept posting. Thanks.


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You’re welcome bluesky.

Is FF strictly necessary for a lot of “meat dogs”? Probably not. But, most hunters want a dog that simply goes out and gets their birds back to them by any means possible, so for them it’s not worth the time to FF. And I can understand that point of view. Not that I agree with it, but I can understand.

Let’s face it. Most hunters break their dogs out a few weeks before hunting season, throw a few marks, maybe run some rudimentary blinds, and then call it good. If that works for them, who am I to argue?

Most dogs that pick up lots of birds for a living (guide dogs, HT dogs, and FT dogs) by necessity have to be FF’ed because they have to run good crisp blinds with a lot of suction.

In the end, it’s really about what you, as a retriever owner, are happy with.


Agreed but I’d still like to reinforce, the most likely way to have a dog that performs to any level is to use a proven mainstream program which will in turn involve FF. Don’t skip steps or you risk not accomplishing what you want.


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Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:20 pm
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Post lab traing question
Edited for double post


Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:23 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
Wtf are you talking about? Either read the topic and respond accordingly, or go away.

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Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:01 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
Lol

Some people’s children...


Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:01 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
Its already been stated but FF cleaned up mouthing issues as well as a guaranteed delivery to hand. I wasnt a fan of having to leave the blind to pick up birds littered on or close to shore. I'm not a hunt test guy but I do look at tests for training goals. If the east coast gets screw by Dorian like Florence, I'll probably worry about hunt tests more than hunting this season. Is it required? No. Everyone has their own opinion but to me a meat dog has a solid basis ie CC obedience and FF nothing more or less.

Pretty late to the party looking at the dates this thread was started but nonetheless.

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Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:56 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
CC is a must.

FF is strongly advised. I've been able to dodge it with my 2 cockers. They deliver to hand naturally. On occassion they will drop a bird to switch to another bird, but I can just resend them to pick up the dropped bird. FF was a must on my lab. My setter and pointer will require FF as well.

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Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:41 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
ibfishinb wrote:
CC is a must.

FF is strongly advised. I've been able to dodge it with my 2 cockers. They deliver to hand naturally. On occassion they will drop a bird to switch to another bird, but I can just resend them to pick up the dropped bird. FF was a must on my lab. My setter and pointer will require FF as well.

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It’s not just about delivery to hand. It’s the foundation and gate for an easy force to pile and later work. There’s a reason you rarely ever see an advanced level waterfowl dog that hasn’t gone through the Rex Carr to Mike Larry to Rick Stawski based pipeline.


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Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:07 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
bluesky2012 wrote:
ibfishinb wrote:
CC is a must.

FF is strongly advised. I've been able to dodge it with my 2 cockers. They deliver to hand naturally. On occassion they will drop a bird to switch to another bird, but I can just resend them to pick up the dropped bird. FF was a must on my lab. My setter and pointer will require FF as well.

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It’s not just about delivery to hand. It’s the foundation and gate for an easy force to pile and later work. There’s a reason you rarely ever see an advanced level waterfowl dog that hasn’t gone through the Rex Carr to Mike Larry to Rick Stawski based pipeline.


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Very true. All my labs have been FF for that very reason.

My cockers primarily flush quail and either they or the pointer retrieve. I will likely FF my cocker puppy so I can do more advanced work with her.

All the pointers I FF. Very few will even retrieve until you FF.

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Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:31 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
ibfishinb wrote:
bluesky2012 wrote:
ibfishinb wrote:
CC is a must.

FF is strongly advised. I've been able to dodge it with my 2 cockers. They deliver to hand naturally. On occassion they will drop a bird to switch to another bird, but I can just resend them to pick up the dropped bird. FF was a must on my lab. My setter and pointer will require FF as well.

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It’s not just about delivery to hand. It’s the foundation and gate for an easy force to pile and later work. There’s a reason you rarely ever see an advanced level waterfowl dog that hasn’t gone through the Rex Carr to Mike Larry to Rick Stawski based pipeline.


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Very true. All my labs have been FF for that very reason.

My cockers primarily flush quail and either they or the pointer retrieve. I will likely FF my cocker puppy so I can do more advanced work with her.

All the pointers I FF. Very few will even retrieve until you FF.

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Yup. My GSP retrieves well prior to force, but FF cleaned it up and made that dog much more biddable. I’m a big believer in FF as part of a disciplined approach to training.

Hell if my wife brought home a pug, I’d force fetch it because of the obedience effects I get from it later.


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Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:46 am
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Post Re: lab traing question
I only have English setters and English pointers. They love to hunt/point but dont seem to care much about the retrieve... until FF is complete.

I am relatively new to the English Cockers and they are unique. The 2 I own have delivered to hand. I do see where FF would be of benefit of course. My most recent was ready at 5 months old to be on the guide string. Now at 8 months she is a beast. Occasionally she will drop a bird to pick up another, but she hunts dead to get the one she dropped. Amazing little dogs. FF will be done so I can reach her full potential.

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Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:02 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
Interesting to see this thread again years later. I haven’t swung through this forum in a long time.

In general, I’m still a strong advocate of FF’ing retrievers (of any level) as a good foundation for running crisp cold blinds. But, I come from an All Age FT background and am at an extreme end of the retriever spectrum.

However, I can understand that some don’t share my views. That’s okay. I learned long ago that it’s darn near impossible to convince another dog trainer of the benefits of training techniques they don’t want to enact.

That’s not a knock on other trainers, because honestly, my present dog would be a nightmare in a hunting blind. He’s a great trial dog, but I’ve found myself sometimes wishing he had a little less “go”. He’ll take the highest burn on a Dogtra Edge and not blink. I shudder to think of him in a less experienced trainers hands. He’d be running the show in about 30 seconds when he figured out a less experienced trainer.

In truth, I prefer to hunt over one of my fiancé’s males, who is a much easier dog to manage in a blind.


Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:47 pm
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Post Re: lab traing question
We recently purchased a high drive lab for the Plantation. It was one of those that could not live in a house and the owner released it to a pro trainer. He came from a Master National breeding (dont recall the parents names). When we bought him, he was FF, forced to pile, doing blind work, handling, etc. The dog has a TON of drive. He barks constantly in the kennel... until you get him on the ground. Bark collars do nothing. He requires alot of collar pressure to keep him in check. I imagine he would be difficult in a duck blind on a slow day. I use him for flushing quail. Probably going to use him for retrieving at pheasant tower shoots this weekend, and give my personal dogs a day off.

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Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:22 am
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