Would you two get a room...shit.
Why you gotta be such a party pooper, turd digger? Didn't you learn your leason last time?
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| Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism https://www.mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34431 |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Thanksgiving is a rare holiday, in that the humanists have a difficult time hijacking it, like Easter and Christmas. It is a time set apart for Thanking God, just like the pilgrims did. Some modern day humanists are attempting to teach public school children that the Pilgrims thanked the Indians, but that is a lie, and even those that are not Christian realize it. What many do not know, is the Pilgrims started out as Socialists, and that socialism failed. "William Bradford, the colony’s governor its first 30 years, wrote of the agreement between the Pilgrim passengers and the financial “Adventurers” in his book Of Plymouth Plantation. He noted that the seven-year contract signed July 1, 1620, before leaving Plymouth England, stipulated that the Pilgrims were to pool, for common benefit, “all profits and benefits that are got by trade, traffic, trucking, working, fishing, or any other means of any person or persons…” It further noted “that at the end of the seven years, the capital and profits, viz. the houses, lands, goods and chattels, be equally divided betwixt the Adventurers and Planters…” During this time the colonists were to “have their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock and goods of the said colony.” It doesn’t get more socialistic than this because the government divvied out the goods and loafers received the same as those who worked. The first two years the result was shortages and starvation. About half the colonists died. No one did more than the minimal because the incentive to excel was destroyed. The industrious were neutralized. Bradford wrote of the scarcity of food “no supply was heard of, neither knew they when they might expect any.” The socialist experiment Bradford added, “was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to the benefit and comfort. For the young men, that were most able and fit for labour and service, did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men’s wives and children without any recompense….” In other words, socialism made strong men lazy. In another book written by the same author, History of Plymouth Plantation, Bradford spoke of another problem because of the government created famine—thievery. Even in this Christian community, “much was stolen both by night and day….” After two years of such, with the survival of the colony at stake, they contemplated upon “how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop than they had done, that they might not still thus languish in misery.” They opted to abandon the incentive killing socialist contract in favor of the free market. And so they “assigned to every family a parcel of land, according to the proportion of their number, for that end…” The effects were almost immediate. A delighted Governor Bradford wrote: “This had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor… could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better content. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.” In other words, the free market is a much greater stimulus than governmental force. The Pilgrims now wished to work because they got to keep the benefits of their labor. “Instead of famine now God gave them plenty,” Bradford wrote, “and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God…. Any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day.” Secure property rights are the key to prosperity for all who wish to work. When this right is threatened by confiscatory taxation or outright confiscation of property, or by excessive government rules and regulations governing such, whether planned as in a contract enforced by the government at Plymouth, or gradual as in our day, work and production slow and can eventually stop. The answer for them was to extract socialism from their midst as it is for us today as well. May we have the wisdom to do so?" This Thanksgiving, I will thank God for all he has given us, all the while, being disgusted at our modern day Americans who now vote for socialism. I guess Idacraw and Dguidry can thank Darwin for allowing the ameba to become a turkey |
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| Author: | idacraw [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
In typical fashion you have once again focused on half truths and declared them facts, spinning history to represent your twisted views of an America that no longer follows your beliefs. Historians say that the settlers in Plymouth, and their supporters in England, did indeed agree to hold their property in common — William Bradford, the governor, referred to it in his writings as the “common course.” But the plan was in the interest of realizing a profit sooner, and was only intended for the short term; historians say the Pilgrims were more like shareholders in an early corporation than subjects of socialism. “It was directed ultimately to private profit,” said Richard Pickering, a historian of early America and the deputy director of Plimoth Plantation, a museum devoted to keeping the Pilgrims’ story alive. The arrangement did not produce famine. If it had, Bradford would not have declared the three days of sport and feasting in 1621 that became known as the first Thanksgiving. “The celebration would never have happened if the harvest was going to be less than enough to get them by,” Mr. Pickering said. “They would have saved it and rationed it to get by.” The competing versions of the story note Bradford’s writings about “confusion and discontent” and accusations of “laziness” among the colonists. But Mr. Pickering said this grumbling had more to do with the fact that the Plymouth colony was bringing together settlers from all over England, at a time when most people never moved more than 10 miles from home. They spoke different dialects and had different methods of farming, and looked upon each other with great wariness. “One man’s laziness is another man’s industry, based on the agricultural methods they’ve learned as young people,” he said. Bradford did get rid of the common course — but it was in 1623, after the first Thanksgiving, and not because the system wasn’t working. The Pilgrims just didn’t like it. In the accounts of colonists, Mr. Pickering said, “there was griping and groaning.” “Bachelors didn’t want to feed the wives of married men, and women don’t want to do the laundry of the bachelors,” he said. The real reason agriculture became more profitable over the years, Mr. Pickering said, is that the Pilgrims were getting better at farming crops like corn that had been unknown to them in England. As for Jamestown, there was famine. But historians dispute the characterization of the colony as a collectivist society. “To call it socialism is wildly inaccurate,” said Karen Ordahl Kupperman, a historian at New York University and the author of “The Jamestown Project.” “It was a contracted company, and everybody worked for the company. I mean, is Halliburton a socialist scheme?” The widespread deaths resulted mostly from malaria. Tree ring studies suggest that the settlement was also plagued by drought. But the biggest problem, Professor Kupperman said, was the lack of planning. The Virginia settlers came to the New World thinking that they could find gold or a route to the Pacific Ocean via the Chesapeake Bay, and make a quick buck by setting up a trading station like others were establishing in the East Indies. “It was just wishful thinking,” she said, “a failure to recognize that these things are really, really difficult.” The Tea Party’s take on Thanksgiving may have its roots in the cold war. Samuel Eliot Morison, the admiral and historian who edited Bradford’s “Of Plymouth Plantation,” titled the chapter about Bradford ending the common course “Indian Conspiracy; Communism; Gorges.” But it is important to note that he was writing in 1952, amid great American suspicion of the Soviets. “The challenges of the cold war and dealing with Russia are reflected in the text,” Mr. Pickering said. Likewise, Cleon Skousen, the author of the “Making of America” textbook, was an anticommunist crusader in the 1960s. (His term for Jamestown was not socialism but “secular communism.”) “What’s going on today is a tradition of conservative thought about that early community structure,” Mr. Pickering said. William Hogeland, the author of “Inventing American History,” agreed. “Across the political spectrum, there’s a tendency to grab a hold of some historical incident and yoke it to a current agenda,” he said. “It doesn’t always mean there’s no connection, but often things are presented as historical first, rather than as part of the agenda first.” And indeed, many can play this game. Professor Kupperman, for instance, said the Jamestown story reminded her mostly of the Iraq war. “It was kind of like the idea that the Iraqis would greet us with flowers,” she said. |
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| Author: | idacraw [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Despite a comprehensive repudiation (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/weeki ... rnike.html) by historians of the belief that the original Pilgrims were socialists who only began to succeed and prosper once they turned to capitalism, on this Thanksgiving conservative leaders and writers continue to spread the urban legend that the settlers were almost doomed by their socialist-ways. Some background: according to real historians (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/weeki ... rnike.html) , the Pilgrims held their land in common “in the interest of realizing a profit sooner, and was only intended for the short term; historians say the Pilgrims were more like shareholders in an early corporation than subjects of socialism.” But the settlers, who came from different part of England, “spoke different dialects and had different methods of farming, and looked upon each other with great wariness.” Because of such difficulties, the colony scrapped the land arrangements in 1623, yet the colony held the first Thanksgiving in 1621 and the original “arrangement did not produce famine.” But that hasn’t stopped the Right from propagating the myth that the failures of “socialism” forced them to embrace capitalism. In order to make the myth seem true, Fox News commentator John Stossel simply moves the date (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/11/ ... z16E8bKoNn) of the first Thanksgiving (http://www.scholastic.com/scholastic_th ... ing/feast/) from 1621 to 1623: Had today's political class been in power in 1623, tomorrow's holiday would have been called "Starvation Day" instead of Thanksgiving. Of course, most of us wouldn't be alive to celebrate it. Every year around this time, schoolchildren are taught about that wonderful day when Pilgrims and Native Americans shared the fruits of the harvest. But the first Thanksgiving in 1623 almost didn't happen. Long before the failure of modern socialism, the earliest European settlers gave us a dramatic demonstration of the fatal flaws of collectivism. Unfortunately, few Americans today know it. The Pilgrims at Plymouth Colony organized their farm economy along communal lines. The goal was to share the work and produce equally. That's why they nearly all starved. Phyllis Schlafly lauded a book (http://blog.eagleforum.org/2010/10/ten- ... alism.html) by Coral Ridge Ministries (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/ ... ministries) which views the Pilgrims as the first example of failed socialists in America, and even Congressman Todd Akin repeated the legend (http://www.americanindependent.com/1581 ... dsocialism) on the House Floor: They came here with the idea that, after trying socialism that it wasn’t going to work. They realized that it was unbiblical and it was a form of theft. So they pitched socialism out, they learned that in the early 1620s. |
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| Author: | cb5331 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Would you two get a room...shit. Why you gotta be such a party pooper, turd digger? Didn't you learn your leason last time?
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| Author: | idacraw [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
| Author: | quackconsumer [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Wow. I don't get on here nearly as much anymore. So maybe this has allready been covered. Is idacraw the same person as paleo? If so, why did our crawfish catching champion of the world change his name? Not looking for a long drawn out argument, just a simple answer. These days I am busy, and don't have time to debate on here. |
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| Author: | cb5331 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
He was deported and then snuck back in under a different alias. That or brasso got a whole lot better with words.
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| Author: | rangerp [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Notice that Idecraw gets real testy when you talke about socialism, Marxism, and Communism. |
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| Author: | idacraw [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Who's testy? I just won't let you spread lies and half truths twisted for your right wing fanatical agenda. I have your number now, get used to it. |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
The Pilgrams thanked God, not Darwin. They did try socialism, and it failed. Everywhere it has been tried, it fails. |
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| Author: | idacraw [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
How can they be socialists and thank god at the same time? Your "facts" aren't adding up here. |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
go back and read the account, it is pretty cut and dry. Hundreds of years prior to Marx, they attempted to use an equal distribution of "stuff" (socialims, even if it was not labeled as such). If failed. Once they divided up the land, and families took on the responsibility of growing for thier own, they prospered. Governor Bradford wrote: “This had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor… could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better content. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.” In other words, the free market is a much greater stimulus than governmental force. The Pilgrims now wished to work because they got to keep the benefits of their labor. “Instead of famine now God gave them plenty,” Bradford wrote, “and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God…. Any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day.” Are you arguing that socialims is a better system than capitalism? |
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| Author: | idacraw [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
Go back and read the real story, not the heavily edited and falsified propaganda you cited. |
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| Author: | rangerp [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thanksgivng - Thanking God for Capitalism |
read Governor Bradford |
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