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| Power over Speed https://www.mudmotortalk.com/mmt_v2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59429 |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Power over Speed |
Howdy, I'm a newby from AK. Stu sent me here and I've enjoyed the reading. Most posts I've read so far center around speed. Here in AK we judge a boat/motor setup by how many moose and hunters it'll carry. I have a 22' x 60" James Bay freighter canoe with a 50 hp Tohatsu. It'll haul 3500# according to the plate. Top speed is 19mph with the 50hp. I think it would do 19mph with a 40hp and not much more with a 60hp. The key is it really doesn't matter if it's loaded or not. 16mph is the cruise speed for this boat and I'm OK with that. I understand surface drives are faster and longtails are slower but which delivers the horsepower for the $$$$? I need a motor that'll get me into the shallow hard bottom/soft bottom/ beaver infested swamps and then push 2 hunters, a camp and two moose (that's about 900 mallards) up a river that's flowing 8+ mph. Stu told me up front he doesn't like canoes and I respect that but he ain't seen mine yet and it's the only horse I have to ride for now. I actually think it will be more efficient for long hauls with a load due to the hull shape. I will defer to Stu's EFI experience for cold weather starts and efficiency. I'm not a Vanguard genius and would not attempt to install EFI myself. I've read here on the forum that Backwater sells a 37 EFI now. I've sent them a message request for info. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Should I look at surface drives? Stick with a carburetor model? I'm not biased either way. Thanks for your time. |
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| Author: | SETx Longtail [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
For what you're doing there's a couple ways to look at it. A Longtail will not be as easy to run as a surface drive for the most part. Especially if you're making long trips. The 1:1 drive does deliver good Tq. And you did right by going to Backwater first. That's the only one Id consider for you. As far as the EFI... It would more than likely be ok but there's not many people out there with a lot of hours on it in our application yet as far as I'm aware, if there is maybe someone else will chime in. The surface drive route would be the way I went for your big canoe. Consider a GoDevil with a rock guard. They are about as tough and simple as they come. The big advantage with the surface drive is the gear reduction, which allows bigger props to be used, giving more thrust. That is also a disadvantage on a hard shallow bottom, it's hard to get back moving if you've stopped. The Longtail will win there most of the time. The 8mph current you describe is what would steer me away from the Longtail. Once you load that thing down, and head up River in that current you may be making 8-10mph?? I think with most any big block surface drive your be around the 15-17 that you're looking for. Look into ProDrive as well. There are a few more moving parts but their newer lower unit has deeper gear reduction specifically for bigger loads. I'd get a manual reverse model and I believe they offer a rock guard as well. It's more expensive than the GoDevil but it also has neutral and reverse... Full power reverse at that which I could see as useful in such a fast moving River as you describe. The ProDrive is the most like running a conventional outboard engine. It would be comfortable on long runs as would the GoDevil. Lots of pros and cons with all these setups to consider though. I suggest making a list on paper and making your decision based on what are the most important things to you, then deciding which type of engine would fit best for you. |
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| Author: | huck Finn [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Moose boat welcome , Setxlongtail , spot on with that advice . Moose boat. , can you furnish any pics of your canoe . Transom details , Etc H Finn |
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| Author: | Glades Ranger [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Good advice given, Moose! I'd test drive them all, it is a major investment. With those loads, you definitely need all the horses!! |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Thanks for the advice. I see your point about steering. I tried a small Scavenger on a Pelican canoe once. That should have been an Olympic sport. This freighter is as stable as a Jonboat though. I don't plan on screaming up hard rocky riffles so quick starts in hard places isn't on the agenda. I tried to attach pictures but didn't succeed. Being the first generation in my family to walk upright has it's limitations. I'll give it another shot this evening. Thanks gents. |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Here are some pictures of the freighter. (I hope.) If this works I'll attach one more over all picture. The freighter is designed to haul heavy loads efficiently. A surface drive might be the better choice. I'm not sure it would make the canoe go faster but torque is important. My initial reason for looking at a longtail is lighter weight on the transom and price. I like the adjustability that Backwater provides and Jake is a heck of a salesman. Nice guy too. |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Here is a side view. I also thought about a longtail after reading GoDevils recommendation of using a longtail for long skinny boats. This boat is long and skinny compared to a 22' Jon. Choosing a motor isn't going to be as easy as I thought.... |
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| Author: | SETx Longtail [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
If the transom could handle it, a remote steer PD would be sweet on that last rig. |
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| Author: | da go get'er [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
I bet that canoe bites when that nose catches a wave at a bad angle. |
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| Author: | pinepointer [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
| Author: | Mooseboat [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
The transom is strong enough but I think a 330# PD is realistically too much weight to be hanging off the stern. The Tohatsu is 210# and the lift is about 25#. I tried hanging another 80 pound kicker off once and it was noticeable. I think I should stay below 250# or the keel might dig too far and wreck the bottom of the transom if I try to hole shot it on a hard bottom. I can load the bow heavy to compensate but that's not ideal. I thought the console would be cool. It works fine but I want to go back to a tiller. I've had the canoe in Prince William Sound. 2' seas are a breeze and to my astonishment this thing cuts right through 3'ers like butter. I wouldn't want 3' confused seas but it will take them head on all day. Its made for the big Canadian Lakes where it gets it's name "James Bay" made by Scott Canoe. They quit making them 3 years ago. This one is one of the last made. |
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| Author: | mikecatt13 [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
I believe a gatortail 35 weighs in about 260 lbs |
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| Author: | Gigafowl [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Have you considered an outboard jet - over hard bottoms with little vegitation they are a good option to consider ??? In the MM world the smaller diameter LT prop gives it a big advantage over the SD - especially the smaller 23 hp LT with a 9" by 6 pitch or less - it won't be fast but it will work with near total efficiency in 6" of water over hard bottom where a SD with 12" prop just can't get a bite at all.... |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Pinepointer, I must have been typing when you posted. Never seen their duck boat. The tan colored canoe in the middle is a Clipper Mac 18. It's a dandy for a solo trip. I might look at a 6.5 Copperhead for it someday. I'm still recovering over my last skinny canoe and longtail Scavenger experience. I squeezed a few peach seeds motoring that thing upstream. Gigafowl, Thanks. A GT with reverse just might work if they truly weigh 260#. Kinda spendy but if it works and is reliable then maybe. I don't have a bias or a clue which motor is better than the other. Reading the other threads on this sight I get a sense that manufacture choice is a Ford/Chevy thing. Reliability and the ability to make repairs in the field is a big deal up here. |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Oops, I meant to quote Mikecat on the Gatortail comment. Sorry about that. Gigafowl, I could put a jet on the 50 and end up with a 30. The problem with a jet is this boat is not made to plain like a flat jon boat. A jet would be very inefficient, burn way more fuel and would always be lugging with a load and not get up on step. |
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| Author: | SETx Longtail [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Since ease of repair and simplicity and ruggedness is such a concern, you should really consider a GoDevil surface drive. No trim or clutch to malfunction, says they weigh 265. Doesn't hurt that they're the cheapest out there too lol. |
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| Author: | Mooseboat [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
Thanks for everyone's input. I've talked to both Go devil dealers up here. Really nice fellas. The local dealer gave me a quote on a 35 SD that is $1200 more than I can have a new Backwater 37EFI shipped here. Guess I'll have to think on it bit. Hopefully, I'll have pictures of the freighter cubed out with meat and horns this fall to post a review with one or the other. Thanks again. |
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| Author: | SETx Longtail [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
That's $1200 more for a surface drive vs a Longtail too. Not really apples to apples. |
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| Author: | Russ [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
If both will meet your needs, even though the SD will do it a bit faster, then it's a 1200 comparison. If that extra 5-8 mph matters, then does it matter enough to spend 1200 on? If it doesnt, then compare maintenance. SD have a few extra things to work on compared to a longtail, but the GD is as simple as can be and no worse than a longtail (just grab the extra parts you might need while on the water for either one, and all good). I think with what you've said, you can't go wrong with either. The Briggs will be more trouble than the frames anyway lol |
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| Author: | cb5331 [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Power over Speed |
I think I'd prefer the backwater.. |
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