I Have a 16 month old lab. He handles pretty good on the land. We're practicing at a seasoned level on land, does good handling on unmarked blinds ( he can spot the orange pole every time ) . It's not always pretty but he has it pretty well down pat. He has his 1st 2 passes at his started title no problem. Didn't get to get his other 2 passes due to work and a new baby. When on water he marks good, but on blinds seems confused. Some times he will listen other times he will blow me off. A few times he has just come back and I had to resend him back out. I don't expect him to sit in the water, but I do expect him to stop and focus on me. Instead when it can get him to handle , it's on the go. A lot of it's my fault due to work and a baby. I'm only getting time to work him in fields and in the yard. He's even doing well on double t's on the land. He's Ben on a good bit of hunts know, what should I do ? Learns fast on land. Seems confused or over stimulated on water. He almost always gets the blinds on the water, but only after he hunts it up for a lil while. Ton of drive and wants to please. What drills can I do with him? Any advice would be appreciated. ( I think it's the trainer, not the dogs fault )

Is the problem that he won't tread water when you sit him?


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Wasn't it you saying you haven't whistle trained him yet?

Go back and re-in force the basic whistle commands. The dog must have the basic commands down a 100% all the time or go back and re- do basics. It takes a lot of time to get a dog perfect but keep trying . Try and join a local H.R.C. Club and train with other dog handlers. That will help you100x to get this dog training down. It's the best way to learn the little " tricks" there are to training dogs. Good luck with the hunt tests.

"Learns fast on land. Seems confused or over stimulated on water. He almost always gets the blinds on the water, but only after he hunts it up for a lil while. Ton of drive and wants to please. What drills can I do with him?"

What a dog learns to do on land doesn't usually translate well to water. In addition, if you allow your dog to just "hunt it up" (the water blind), you are more less telling him that's OK. You need to establish standards which define when he must pay attention to you or begin a search. Expectations must be taught.

What you really need in water is a dog that is under control and responsive which means paying attention to your directions. Realistically when hunting, the duck is not always where you saw it go down. This means established control expectations will allow you to quickly get the dog to the area of the fall (which he may not have seen = cold blind) and then be "released" to search. The "package" must be a well defined and efficient process = taught.

The best way to establish control in water is to teach swim-by. Here are three videos showing one way to teach it. There are other variations that are just as effective.

My retrievers are routinely taught handling via single and double T on land followed by swim-by in water.

Thanks kwicklabs ! Most of the time in my marsh kameaux can walk in our pond. I have no problem at all on land with commands. He knows them and listen on land, I never have to correct him on land for his handling. Water is where he will blow me off. Like it's a trust issue. Usually on his blind in the water I can send him ( back ) in the direction of the blind. When he's close he hunts it up, but would still like more control, it's odd I have zero of these issues on land. Night and day. Working with him on this on land is pointless. He listens on land. I'm joining Cajun HRC soon as the next hunt test comes around. My dogs trainer is with that HRC. I've done realy good with him on land by myself. Just water is the issue. If I correct him on water he will sometimes just come back to the blind. Not an issue on land. He will even blow off an ecollar off at times on water cranked up. ( great OB in the blind ) I prefer not to use the ecollar on blinds. Thanks for the advice keep it coming ! Btw he sees most if the ducks fall, it's when multiples fall 3 or 4 that he has trouble doing blinds ( started lab but seasoned on land)

Are you following a training program? If so, which one?

The general sequence with most Carr based systems is to get through TT, and then go either into water force/swim-by (with warm water temps) or pattern blinds on land (with cold water temps) A lot depends on the time of year and the water temps. Water forcing a dog on plastic in cold water temps can create a reluctant dog.

Personally, I typically finish TT and then go to pattern blinds on land. Get good momentum and teaching over and back casts just to get the bumper. The focus is on momentum.
Once you have a dog driving well on patterns (trust), and the water temps are warmer, you can move into water force and then swim-by. This teaches the dog to charge into the water and take basic casts/direction.

After that....I try to balance water/land work on "known" blinds. Land blinds might be pattern blinds to known destinations (to build trust) or taught blinds. Success is key.

Water blinds (after swim-by) at this stage, are simple identified blinds. You can let the dog watch a helper plant a simple square entry water blind with a big white bumper near the exit point. The helper merely plants and moves off to the side and pops up a camo umbrella while you heel the dog off in a circle then come back to the "blind". It's a bridge to trust since there is some memory involved. You send...and the dog has success. Then you go to planted white bumpers w/o letting the dog see a helper. The dog is learning to lock down and focus. In effect...you're creating a water pattern set, just like on land.


Eventually, you move on to orange bumpers w/o the dog seeing anything (easy true cold blinds).

Use lots of attrition with this!!!! You don't want collar corrections for missed casts, etc. you want the dog to be confidently charging out and trusting there's something in it for him.

I'm the meantime...on land, you should be working on your angle casts with 8 handed casting drills on land.

I hope this helps you and I didn't confuse you with all the terminology.

Thanx for the tips. I totally understand what ur saying. It was cold when he learn his casting, so we did it mainly on land. I only correct him with an ecollar if he blows off my here or sit whistle. He knows his 8 casting directions very well ( nails them easy on land and will keep goin till u stop him if he passes the orange dummy and doesn't see it, but is easy yo direct back.) fully trust me on land. He charges hard in the water on retrieves but goes into hunt mode if it is a blind. I don't have that problem on land for some reason . It's almost seems like he's so excited he doesn't focus on water, land is no issue. He does t's and double t's on land no problem. Water he wants to hunt it up on blinds, I can get him there, but it's taking slot of time, and no progress so far. Last time he made a blind on the water he kept blowing me off so I made him come back in then sent him out again with better results. We have trained with dummies and live birds, so that's no issue. Might just be my neglect of not working him more in the water ( due to having our first child and having to work a lot ) . He has the drive and is smart, but can be stubborn. ( the stubbornness does have it's benefits at times) . He reminds me of a little boy you keep telling to slow down, stop running when they are excited. Dunno if it's a maturity thing or me. I truly have no issue on land at this point in his training. Just water. Night and day

you can't let a dog dumb up on a blind….than expect him to listen to you. when you run a blind YOU ARE IN CHARGE and it's ALWAYS got to be that way.

Did you teach blinds using the proper progression?
force to pile….
teach your right back left back, right over and left over….
mini t…..
teach your angle casts…
back to mini t with angles
big t (with 5 piles)….
double t…..
water t…
water t with swimby
3 leg pattern blinds…
5 leg pattern blinds…
7 leg pattern blinds….
than true cold blinds?

(there are obviously different variations of this)

or did you "redneck" it and just start pointing when her couldn't find a bird? sounds to me like you are okay with him blowing you off when he finds the bird but when you need him to listen he won't…you have to maintain a standard regardless.

if he's been through t work on land….run t work in the water…..water t

If you would of read my comments, you would see I've allready did almost all those things, he's doing double t's. And no I don't let him hunt it up I'm just saying he would if I let him. Please read my post before u make a comment. I have gotten the advice I needed, I have a few training exercises on the water I need to work on .

no offense but your post made you sound like you didn't know your ass from a hole in the ground...go luck with him "getting blinds on water"

Well u didn't bother reading all my comments before u decided to ask questions that I allready answered and giving tips that I've allready said I have done. The only useful tip you gave has allready Ben given by another member. I appreciate help but not if u don't bother knowing or understanding what's allready Ben done ! Ignorance

I'm not a trainer, I'm learning myself. If I knew I wouldn't of asked

for someone looking for help you're getting little defensive, and critical. if you're going to ask you better be a little patient, and accepting, and appreciative, it seems, of a guy whose intentions are good. just my humble opinion

I find humor here.....at the OP, because he's the one asking for help then getting ornery, and then the posts that repeat what has already been stated and also start talking shit, and get mad when the OP says go read above. It's highly entertaining. As far as the negative comments towards the OP at the bottom, they offer nothing productive to help the OP, but they're entertaining as well. This site gets better and better every day Now that I've offered nothing to help you, OP, I'll take my ninja ass back to reading and learning instead of commenting on posts I cannot offer anything from knowledge to help.

Once agsin if u would read my above replies I have Ben thankful for useful information from people that bothered reading all of my post . Some people wanna give u advice on what to do without reading ur whole post. Iv appreciate the " helpful advice " I have received. Some people blurt a response with out even reading all what the problem is or what he has worked on. Realy would help people not waste there time on giving advice on training my dog did, or is currently doing. I don't mind critiquing my dog or my training. I'm no professional trainer by any means . Everyone talks big behind a computer/ cell phone screen. I said it was ignorance because the guy didn't bother reading the post

look man you said he went through double t. that's it..... that is a fraction of what it takes to run a cold blind especially in water. YOU SHOULDN'T BE RUNNING COLD BLINDS IN WATER IF HE IS JUST BEEN THROUGH DOUBLE T....That's probably why he's "Confused or over stimulated"...

Go backwards...Water T, Swimby, than run some pattern blinds in the water...by pattern blinds I mean put a few blinds spaced apart signifigantly, put a pole up with a white bucket on it so he can see it....it's a KNOWN BLIND... hold a high standard on the line to the blind and run the pattern blinds for a while...

You don't want my help though....

Hey man and because I don't want you to think I am a big shot behind my computer screen...PM me I'll give you my cell phone number...

You're going to fast.... can't run double t and than go straight into running cold water blinds...

Or you can send him over here and pay me to do it right....you pick

Been. B-E-E-N.

See I appreciate an answer like that since u read my post, I didn't know that I'm learning as I go. Your first post u asked if I did this and this and this. When I stated most of that in my post. I have just started doing known blinds he has no issue with that so on to step 2

You've been asked so far WHAT PROGRAM you are using . Your response is always what you have done so far , but still never have answer the question . The other thing I've seen in one of your post that your dogs trainer . I'm missing something here , why are you not asking your trainer seeing how your suppose to have one . Now I'm as confused as your dog . You've already been giving very sound advise by others here I agree with . So now this is my insight , if you have a program that you are using , you are skipping a lot of areas and rushing your pup . This is the reason you have holes in your training . The other thing is , said it yourself that your dog goes in hunt mode and blows you off . Your dog is showing you he doesn't respect you or trust you , sad but true . If you say the program , someone may have use it and know what step you are missing . That is why it's been ask . You are trying to internet train your dog and that does not work most of the time .

like I said I have received the advice that I needed. My dog was at a trainer for 9 months and was at a started level. I was too far away from the trainer to learn anything myself. I'm not perfect by any means I'm learning that's why I asked questions. Your right though I came to the wrong place to ask, though I did get good advice. There are others that just wanna bash u. I don't know what u mean by what program my dogs on. I have no issues on land. Just having trouble on water but I'm on that know . Found a guy that trains in the area, he messed with my dog and showed me right away what I needed to do. Said he's doing fine on land , but like u said I was going to fast on water. The trainer told me to take it a few steps back and touch up on swim by 1. Trainer said the dogs Ben through it but not enough, which he showed me with another dog where I should be before I move on

I'd kick myself in the nuts if I sent a dog to a trainer for 9 months and he only came back at a started level...

He was starting on seasoned, but yea I agree and did .

Just started on seasoned*

What we mean by Program is a outline training program from start to finished retriever . For example , Fowl Dogs ( 3 dvd vol) , Duck Dog basic's (2 DVD vol ) , Evan Graham Smart works ( A lot of DVD's ) . Their are more out there . I recommend that you get one , the guy you just meet that is helping you . Ask him with one he is using . Everyone goes by some program as a base line maybe with some tweeking . The good thing here is someone will be helping you , the programs don't teach you how to read a dog or too handle a soft dog for example . Remember , your dog is training you as well , so the fair and good luck !

No I'm not goin off one specific Video, have favored tom dokken video's

Thank u. One thing is I have learned is my dogs tendencies, what methods connects best with him so far. He's stubborn but smart, holds no grudges with the ecollar . Responds well to it . Does not cowar down looks at. Me with the same enthusiasm . It's the trainer not the dog having a hard time. He's picked everything up Iv learned, but I still have a lot to learn

I won't go into your situation with your dog but I found Mike Lardy programs to be very good they teach you the order you need to training your dog between yard work and field work. This will keep you and your dog on track and just for examples sake you won't have him run a water blind until he has finished swim by and pattern blinds for example.

It's hard trying to learn how to train your dog from the Internet, books, articles, DVD, and hear say, for every one good honest post that is correct you may need to wade thru 15 other posts that may only have partial bits of information. I would also suggest retriever's net as a source for good dog information.

Good luck, Don't rush and if your dog looks confused call him back in and work on a drill you know he is 100percent on doing to build his confidence. Always end on a happy positive note for training. Review what your goal was for said confused drill and then think "did I set him up for success by teaching him everything he needed to know to do that drill". If there was one simple thing missed back up start over and teach it until it is 100 percent. Small, slow building blocks put together to make a total retriever.

My next best piece of advice is when you have your dog out training or doing what ever around other people, "leave your ego home" it will be better for you and your dog.

Thanks
Phil

Thanks for the advice. I have been going back over things we've trained on a million times, but I figured a million more won't hurt. I always throw a few fun bumpers after we train. I want him to enjoy training. When he is not doing well on training I get aggravated with myself more then the dog. But I have to realize dogs have there down days just like us humans. Once again thanks for the advice I'll look into getting those training videos, I'm always up for learning more.

I think you'll get a lot out of Mike's material. You might be a little lost with the terminology, but if you need an explanation, just PM me. I've used Mike's program since it first came out and have sat and talked with him at the National Open about his program. He's made subtle changes over the years that aren't obvious.

Have you spoken to anyone with Lake Charles HRC? They might be able to get you into a training group.

Well when u knocked her for it she referred to it as a hot spot bc u made it a hot spot. Being the reason she never flared from it before. Therefore when she flared from it u thought u made a mistake and let her keep doing it when u should have made it hotter all the way without her quitting to make for the laziness last resort is to walk up and put obstacles in way they will get bored and lazy on drills but this being the reason for the whole force fetch to be able to be pushed through that situation


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