This is the type of BS that really pisses me off when it comes to religion and their agendas. The Catholic ran hospital in Colorado is being sued for the wrongful deaths of a pregnant woman and her 2 unborn fetuses on the grounds that the on call physician never answered his pages, she laid there and died without medical help.

"But when it came to mounting a defense in the Stodghill case, Catholic Health’s lawyers effectively turned the Church directives on their head. Catholic organizations have for decades fought to change federal and state laws that fail to protect “unborn persons,” and Catholic Health’s lawyers in this case had the chance to set precedent bolstering anti-abortion legal arguments. Instead, they are arguing state law protects doctors from liability concerning unborn fetuses on grounds that those fetuses are not persons with legal rights."

Their defense is that unborn fetuses are not considered persons and have no legal right to protection. So when it fits their religious agendas they are pro-life, but when they stand to lose money they say they aren't people so their death was meaningless. Hypocrisy knows no bounds. This stance taken by the church should end all the pro-life/pro-choice campaigns, they just admitted they have no ground to stand on.

Come on, you libs love to incorrectly apply that "separation of Church and state" thing all the time. Why not incorrectly apply it here?
Regardless of our religious beliefs and moral convictions, the law is the law and is the same regardless. Flip the argument-if the state were to allow the Church to stipulate that the feti were actually people, and accept that argument, then that would go against their current law and precedent. In affect, the state would have to reverse its position on when life begins and the rights of a fetus. The Church is simply using the definition contained in the law. Neither the Church nor he state can, nor should they be able, to have it both ways. Sharia law and it's treatment of women makes a fine example of this as well.
Judge-Ahkmed, you are accused of stoning your wife to death. How do you plead?
Ahkmed-Not guilty.
Judge-There were ten witnesses. You can't be serious?!?
Ahkmed-In my religion this is acceptable and not against the law.
Judge-Oh, ok. You're free to go. Sorry for the inconvenience.

This has nothing to do with the separation of church and state. The catholic church is constantly pushing the pro-life agenda, saying that all unborn fetuses have a souls and should have the same rights as people, until they are sued for allowing 2 of them to die do to negligence then they aren't people because they weren't born. Just more of the same, the church wanting it both ways, abortion should be illegal cause they are people but they aren't people because they weren't born.

By their own definition they should be on the hook for 3 wrongful deaths instead of hiding behind laws that they are fighting to change.

No, the Church is the defendant in a court of LAW. The LAW says that feti aren't people. Therefor, the Church is powerless to change that, as they have been powerless, or at least ineffectual, in changing the law in general. In the Church's eyes, they may be people, by this isn't a church court. It is a court of LAW. The LAW says they aren't people. Theoretically, even if the Church wanted them to be considered as people, the LAW doesn't allow for that-even though the state's needs would perhaps be better served by that view point in this case. It is you who wants to have things both ways.

How about you read the link, special. The twins could have been saved had the doctor answered his pages and at the least given the staff orders about what to do. She was 7 months pregnant so you know they were viable if action had been taken. I don't want it both ways, had the doctor done his job the twins could have been saved, that is wrongful death. To cover up their negligence they are hiding behind a law that they have been fighting to change for 20 years. They just took the stance that fetuses are not people till they are born, in doing so they are supporting the laws allowing abortion. This a reversal of their stance on abortion and after they settle this case they will try and go back to fighting abortion by saying that fetuses are people.

I know it's a lot to follow, but try and keep up. The church opposes abortion because it is murder since at conception the fetus is a person, but in this case they are following the law because fetuses aren't people. Who is trying to have it both ways? By their definition they are responsible for 3 deaths in this case, a pro-choice advocate would say that only 1 person died. So explain to me how I am wanting it both ways.

Idacraw-

you sound pretty beat up over this. I am with you. I believe all life to be precious.

I got a fix for you. Being you feel the catholic church let you down, come on over and worship with us Indapendent Fundamental Baptists. We leave the man made rules out of it, and just stick wtih that good old fashion 1611 King James Version Bible.

We got room for you.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Far from it! This makes me happy, happy, happy, it is nice to see the Catholic church change their stance and embrace the side of pro-choice!

Thank you for the offer, if I am ever in your neck of the woods I will take advantage of it, seriously.

paleo....remember.......sometimes it seems like the majority of our churches are a joke.
it aint church that u should believe in...........

could one of u fine gentlemen confirm my suspicions please.......
does a browning silverhunter take invector plus chokes??
just want to be sure before i order from offshore.

Yes. Browning Silver absolutely without a doubt takes Invector Plus chokes. I have a Silver and bought a Kicks choke for it about a month ago.

i think that is funny.......church has some damn fine lawyers, or i should say the hospital, because the church and the hospital are 2 different entities.....And why are you pissed? You should be happy that the church is moving in that direction.

I'm not pissed, I am happy that they have taken that stance.

And the hospital is owned and ran by the Catholic church, they run it in accordance with their beliefs.

lol...why does the church have lawyers? for defense......and are the charges true? The church are not the defense team and the defense team is hired to defend the church.....what good lawyer would not use what is law and that a fetus is not a person. It is the law, that is how abortion has continued to be used.....I have no problem with people killing their babies...they prolly would have grown up to be criminals and spawn more criminals and welfare queens....kill them all for all i care, and im a non practicing catholic!!!!lol I dont know the case so i really cant make an educated comment about it but i can say that women who would kill their baby by abortion would not make a good mother and wouldnt raise a good child. We should actually make abortion easier for them so we can allow them to cull themselves out.

If we stop funding their imorality, there will be a lot less getting pregnant.

Yea, I have a rare, exotic, rediculously expensive Browning Silver because I'm rich and I waste my money. Not many people here could afford the $750 I spent on it. That's why a lot of the members have cheap guns like Benelli's, Maxus, etc. I also have a luxurious fleece hat that keeps my head warm on cold days. Something most of the serfs on here could only dream of. Wasted $9 on it. But I'm rich, so it doesn't matter. I could still by my caviar for the month and have money to spare. Sorry you're a nlgger and can only afford the cheapest gun you could find, but if it enables you to enjoy the wonderful sport of duck hunting, I think that's great, although I think that you'd be happier if you'd concern yourself less with what other people have obtained through their own hard word and personal sacrifice and more on just being happy with what you are capable of. The same goes for what other people believe and how they live their lives. I have no doubt that your righteous indignation regarding the beliefs of others stems only from your intense desire to help them, born out of the certainty granted by your intellectual superiority (that you wish everyone would just realize and acquiesce to). Perhaps we'd all be happier, you included, if you'd stop trying to convince us we are ignorant.

Thanks for commenting though. Enjoy your Stoegger.

By the way, you can handle one free of charge at your local exotic gun boutique, Academy Sporting Goods, but you may not want to because it will break your heart that you, by your own admission, are a nlgger and will never be able to afford to own one.

This one went off in a strange direction. From fetuses to 12 gauges.

I am lost.

Not sure what category I belong in with a Browning Auto Five, a Remington 11-87, and a Remington 1000. Two were gifts, and I traded a Smith and Wesson M&P M4 for the rem 11-87, and got a bolt action 30 06 to boot. I even got a couple of those old Ted Williams shotguns for lending out to folks who want to shoot doves with me, and do not have a gun.

good quality firearms are an investment. I tend to buy the ones that I know will hold their value. Nothing wrong with a taurus pistol, but it will never hold value like a Colt, Browning, Walther, Sig Sauer....

Have to love MMT!

My personal favorite shotgun is a WWII remington model 11 riot shotgun that was passed down to me by the father in law.

The stoeger 3500 was also a gift, but it has exceeded every expectation I had for it. 2 seasons so far without a single issue and it swings like a 20 gauge. It won't hold any real value, but I tend to hang onto guns anyway.

My two most prized possessions; my 1611 King James Bible, and my Browning Highpower 9mm. Both give off light, and progressives democrats would like to take both from me. One I can hide in my heart, the other out in the back yard.

Idacraw - Not calling your Stoeger junk, but I have had a few cheap, junky old firearms that I picked up on trades that ended up being my most used.

Years ago, I picked up a short .22 carbine made by Marlin. I used it for squirrel, rabbit, coon, and did lots of target shooting. I do not know what ever even happened to it, but it sure was useful.

Had a Ruger Single six revolver that was also very useful, and wish I had never parted with it.

When I was getting my undergrad, I had sold off most of my rifles and pistols. For a number of years, I used a $30 H&R single barrel to dear hunt, hog hunt, bird hunt..... It kicked like no tomorrow, but it worked and put meat in the freezer at a time that I just about lived off from what I shot.

I know you weren't, it never crossed my mind.

I too have sold a few that I wish I could take back.

we started out with abortion, religion, and moved to guns.

All bickering aside, those of us who value our firearms are going to have to band together. We have a fight on our hands, and it is not going away anytime soon. The duck hunter needs to be backing the 3-gun shooter. The collector needs to support the IDPA competitor.....

Feinstein and crowd are wanting all of them, and they are hoping we as gun owners are in splintered groups, so they can pick us off a group at a time.

I value my firearms. A Browning Silver is not expensive, probably about average or below what most people here use. Certainly much less than a Benelli. None of which means a thing. I bought because I liked it. I expect others did the same.
It was you, ida, not I, who said that you couldn't afford one, after making a reference to my experience with DSC, and implying that I am rich and that I like to throw my money away (neither of which are true). I am not sure what relevance those comments had to your chosen topic of discussion-one which, as evidenced by my prior postings on, i was more than willing to engage you in a civil discussion on By the way, i did read the link, my comments were and are spot on i stand by them. The law says they arent people, so the Church nor anyone else can claim differently in a court of LAW. If people dont like the law, they should seek to change it. At least that is the way the system is supposed to work, but liberals prefer to disregard the system and attempt to change the law through judicial activism, although I doubt that will happen here because that would mean arguing in favor of the lives of the unborn. It is my opinion that you made your original derogatory comments about me to direct the conversation off of your original topic once you were confronted with facts you could not, and still cannot, contradict. This tactic, along with several others you used later in this thread, such as resulting to questioning the intelligence and then attacking the person you're debating (as well as the previously mentioned redirecting the discussion elsewhere) are classic techniques used by liberals to attempt to discredit the other side. As such, I don't take offense at your harsh commentary. Rather, I recognize it for what it is-an attempt for a weak-minded man to save face in a discussion when he has nothing else left to use to defend himself.

Further, I am not insecure. You do not know me well enough to make that assessment, but, again, I realize it was just a technique to discredit me, so it's ok. I have never claimed to be rich. You, on the other hand, we're awfully quick to defend your ego when when you felt threatened by my implying, based on your own comments I might add, that you were poor. I am glad that you are able to afford nice things that I assume bring you happiness, but I question if bragging about them on a mud motor forum is a sign of security.

Lastly, in regard to my unfortunate experience with DSC, which, again, I take no offense to your mentioning, I handled that in the best way it could be handled. The person who stole my deposit was, and is, a thief, mentally unstable, has anger issues, and is younger and much more physically fit than I am. When my physical well-being was threatened by him and his friend, yes, I was scared. I am secure enough in my manhood to admit that without hesitation. It would have made little sense for me to confront him physically as that is a battle I would lose without question. I am secure in my manhood to admit that without hesitation. I could shoot him, I suppose, but that seems a little extreme, and I don't care to be incarcerated for the rest of my life over a boat deposit, but, to each his own, I suppose. To me, being a real man is not about how well one can fight, or play sports, it's not about putting others down to make myself feel better, it's not about judging or condemning. It's not about using people for personal gain, or about mistreating women. To me, being a real man is about being honest, kind, and decent. It's about treating others with respect. It's about helping out when you can. It's about being a good friend, a good husband, and a good father. You may say what you will about me, but your ridicule will only say one thing about you-that I am right.

And just because you can't seem to grasp the point here I'll try another way to say it. I am not trying to say that the guy should win the lawsuit because the twins died, the law clearly states that they aren't people with protection under the law until they are born. The point is that the Catholic hospital is openly hiding behind that law to win a lawsuit, despite the fact that it goes completely against the mission of the Catholic church.

You should do a bit more reading on this instead of making catty comments. If you did you would see that the "Catholic community" is outraged by these actions, and are protesting the stance taken by the hospital. Try google before you come in here stating "facts" and claim you have proven me wrong.

I think eljeff made a good point in this case....about the lawyers...
The guns were brought up because i was in the middle of purchasing
A new, more open choke for my silver....did plenty missing with it last season
Had a deal I couldnt let go by in the bargain cave.......best place to buy dem hi-dollar chokes right after the season closes

I am a Catholic and an obstetrician.

You may say what you will about me, but your ridicule will only say one thing about you-that I am right.

Hate to say it docott, but I think u have been put in your place podna.
Unless ol rangerp willing to take u under his wing....u might want to duck and run.
Just trying to help (like u do) and being a smartass (like I do).

Thanks podna. The mocking is particularly ironic considering you're the one I helped, but ok. Nah, tiger, I don't need anyone's wings. I'm fine just where I am. If it were a simple matter of being angry, then I would agree with you, sport-I've been outdone in the world of mud motor forums. In the real world, not even close.

Glad I was able to help you get a bargain on your choke, and, as always...
Thanks for commenting

All my hunting clothes are Academy brand, not Drake, by the way. Please quote the post where I ever bragged about, or even professed to own, anything expensive? Or maybe the one where I bragged about my income? The one where I posted pictures of my exotic hunting trip or membership in an exclusive club? Either back up your trash talking or put that dlck back in your mouth and shut the fvck up

Since this thread should have prolly been under the christian forum anyway...guess its ok to talk more about the choke.lol.
I wanted a modified but it was an improved cylinder that wss available...I took it.
The choke that was in the silver was too fukkin tight........no room for error.
I realized this one morning when a couple lil greenwing teal had landed in the pond,
Which my podna hadnt noticed, so I let them swim and waited for them to come together.
When they finally got close, I shot right between the two......and thats exactly what happend didnt hit either one...........tightest pattern I ever seen.blasted water between em'both got up.
Switched bak to the old trusty pump after that hunt and ducks paid the price.
I just cant give up on the browning.


Just wondering,, doc......ever tried xanax?

Do I seem in need of an anxiolytic?

I haven't had enough ducks to even shoot at to get an idea of how my kicks mod choke works.

The third split soon to start down here.

Idacraw "They don't allow discussion in there, I guess they aren't as secure in their faith "


We can discuss faith (or lack their off) on any thread in here. We won't let you down.