James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


No where in the book of James are we told that salvation is by works. It is by faith. James made the statement that you show your faith via your works.

The Protestant Reformation, which began in the 16th century, meant that many Christians abandoned important doctrines, theological opinions and disciplines of the Catholic Church - such as purgatory, limbo, indulgences, confession to a priest, and even some deuterocanonical books of the Bible.

The stuff mentioned (purgatory, confessions to a priest, prayers to Mary....) were never Biblical, they were man made rules from the Catholic government to control men. The protestand reformation was nothing more than a move back to the New Testament Church.





The Mormon Church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), founded in the early 1800s, initially championed the practice of polygamy. It also re-introduced the concept of more than one god.

Like Islam, a false religion. Nothing new, false religions come and go.

Yes, the catholic church added a good bit of rules, not in the New Testament. You will not find a pope, infant baptism, prayers to Mary, purgatory, burning candles for the dead...... all man made rules in an effort to gain power. The catholic church killed people for just making the Bible available to the common man.

Did I vote for a mormon? Yes, and I was not pleased about it.

The choice came down between a mormon and a humanist atheist that is friendly toward Islam. It was a choice on the lesser of two evils.
\
It is obvious that you are anti Christian, and you seem to get real defensive when socialism is mentioned.

What form of government do you advocate. If Idacraw were king for a day, what would you change? What form of gov do you wish on the US?

Do you deny that the bible as it exists today is partially mis-translated, and edited by the early church? Do you deny that entire books were removed during early translation?

And I will ask again, why are you not a practicing Jew? They were the chosen ones, the ones tasked by god to spread the word that he was the one true god, it would seem any religion apart from them is false.

I use the King James version. The manuscripts were taken from Erasmus Textis Receptus. He used the Carne Greek used at the time the books were written. The original manuscripts (those wrote by Paul, Luke, Mark....) no longer exist. He had to use copies of copies. The Old testament was taken from the Torah.

Most of the other translations NIV, NKJV... use the Alexandrian texts by Westcott and Hort. These texts were based off from classisal greek, not spoken back in the day they were written.

As far as books being left out. The scholars that put together the KJV, looked at the validity of the Apocrapha (books like Song of Susana, the books of Macabees...), and then looked at what books Jesus, Paul, and other NT writers quoted. They did not quote from these other books. If not mistaken, Jesus quoted Chronicles more than any other book.

I am not a manuscripts expert, and this was written quickly and not spell checked, and from memory from back when I studdied it.

Once again, the Bible is unique in the fulfilled prophecy, the variety of writers over a long period of time, and the way in which it meshes together. The birth, life, death of Jesus was prophecied long before his arrival. The propheices of Israel being scattered, persecuted, and coming back together was also prophecied in great detail. No other religion has this fulfilled prophecy.

As far as why I am not a Jew. To an extent, I am. In Romans 11:16-24 Paul tells us that the born again are basically engrafted into the Jewish Olive Tree.

The Jewish people for the most part rejected the Savior. They are still looking for him, and do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. By my understadning of the book of Revelation, after the second coming, the Christians will be taken out. There will be a seven year tribulation, and the Jews will then know Jesus to be the Messiah, and in extreemily difficult times during the rull of the Anti Christ, they will be converted.

I appologize if this is not clearly written. I am an Infantry Man, not a preacher. I am a bit rusty on some of these subjects.

There is a good bit of the Bible that I do not understand. I am not an overly smart person. I worry about the parts that I do understand. The Ten commandments being pretty easy to understand, but pretty hard to live by. This I do know, no man will keep all of the law. Thus the reason for the cross, and why salvation is by Grace, and not works.

There is much of the Bible and Christianity that I just could not explain. It is a book like no other. It can change your life in ways that I can not put into words. In the book of James, we are told that we get wisdom when we ask for it. I believe you get more understanding from the Bible when it is accompanied by prayer. I find it to be a supernatural book and unlike any other book. I have read the Koran, and studied a good bit of other religions. Nothing else I have read compares.

Now, I answered your question, how about answering mine. What form of government do you advocate for America?

Hey look, it's a shark!

That's not a shark, that is an IRS agent, coming to chomp on your for not buying your Obama Care.

Nope, it's a shark and turd digger is fondling his clasper!!!!!

you would have to translate that one, as I am not sure of the meaning. Not exactly sure that I want to.

Your opponent in this debate knows what it means.

My "opponent" puts up a good debate, and I enjoy it. Dguidry should study him. Anyone that makes me dig deeper, study more, and think in areas I have never contemplated is doing me a favor.

Psalm 18 1-4 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

wpevey - once again, very well stated, thanks.

I do not have your medical or science background. Grad level exercise physiology is as high as I got in anything remotely close.

that being said, when he posted the virus stuff, it spured me to study, and I found the same things you stated in regards to macro and micro evolution. I am just not as able to articulate as well or as eloquently as you.

Thanks again for an awsome post.

wpevey, you still have no clue what you are talking about, and continue to fail seeing the point. You can't argue that evolution exists on a small scale, but not on the large scale. You asked for transitional fossils, I provided them. You want proof of macroevolution, look at the horse lineages I provided earlier, do a bit of reading on them. You and ranger both latched onto the "probably", but failed to read anything else. Yes there are gaps in the fossil record, not because those animals didn't exist, but because they haven't been found yet. We don't turn to a book of fiction to get our answers, we don't take the faith cop out. The search for answers is ever ongoing, every year that passes new fossils are found that continue to add more credence to the theory of evolution. You and ranger seem to think that paleontologists and anthropologists are looking for fossils to disprove your faith, but that is simply not the case. We search for fossils simply to gain understanding of how we came to be, and what led up to the now. The fact that these discoveries happen to disprove the bible is a byproduct, not the goal. And since you have no desire to try and learn from this discussion and only try and find "loopholes" to exploit do you want me to start showing you the inaccuracies, fallacies, gaps, and flat out lies in the bible? There are plenty, but that would do nothing because you simply refuse to entertain the idea of why we are really here.


Anyway just for shits and giggles, here is an example of lab created macroevolution.

Oops, forgot to address your miracle question again...

You stated that you are around death all the time, and you have seen miracles that couldn't be explained. I don't doubt that you have seen things that defy all logic. However something outside the norm doesn't make it a miracle, and I'm not sure why there has to be supernatural intervention. And here is one of my main rubs with religion, why does god get all the credit when something amazing or good happens, but never gets the blame when horrible things happen? If you really believe that god is guiding all things then he must be responsible for both the good and the bad. So if he is responsible for someone seemingly coming back from the dead, he is also responsible for causing the attacks on 9/11.

idacraw- I think you should know that truthfully you and I do not differ on many of these issues as much as you think, and that to some degree Im playing devil's advocate b/c you only seem to see these issues in absolutes. So becareful there Obi-wan, only sith deal in absolutes

You ridicule and degrade religion and want it stricken from all things public b/c you do not believe it. That is your choice not to believe in God, but you can not, not believe in FAITH. Faith is the basis for all religion, the basis for searching for answers, the belief in something you can not see, touch, tast smell, or prove but know it to be true non-the-less. It is ultimatly the reason we as humans ask WHY? I only want you to realize that this same aspect, Faith, is required in science as well. That many times you must believe it to be true even when it can not be proven. This comment "Yes there are gaps in the fossil record, not because those animals didn't exist, but because they haven't been found yet. " by its very nature is proof that you have FAITH in someting you can not prove and yet you preach its existance. No differently than someone who believes in God.
As for your article on E. coli and macro micro evolution, its very intersting and great info, makes for a great debate. However the E. coli, they were still E. coli. It would be kind of like us using our appendix again to process cellulose in our diet. what I see in micro vs macro evolution is scientists defining a term to fit the evidence not evidence to fit the term.
As far as your issue w/ God getting the credit but not the blame. Well that is a matter of the individual and the particular faith in my experience. I know many people who would say bad things happen for a reason the same as good things. Again its thier choice in faith in something they can not prove.
For the record, I'll tell you what I believe. I believe that things evolve, I believe its because they were made to. But I dont believe yet that it has been proven. I also believe in God and I pray, I do not preach or push my faith on others, I do not attend church although I was raised Episcipal. I believe that my Faith , my prayers and my religion is between me and God. My prayers are for me and him and that a building of wood and stone is not needed to talk to him. Man made churches, God made faith and to know Him all you need is faith. I do not take the Bible literally, It is a collection of lessons to open your mind and soul to possibility, that you may find faith and thus know God in your own way. It is ther as a guide so that you can ask the right questions even when there are no answers, and develope as a human being. I believe that He put the universe in motion and for the most part lets it play out as it may, but that on occasion, ever so often he steps in and makes a play. I believe what I believe b/c I have seen both science and faith in ways that lead me to the conclusion that both exist and the true answer lies somewhere in the middle not on one side or the other.

Idacraw- Your comments “I would say that I am slightly left of center. I am not a lib, as you put it, I hate that democrats "buy" votes by increasing benefits to welfare recipients”. “I do for the most part like their views on science and spending for research, and I like that they stay out of families private affairs (birth control, abortion, etc). And of course I like that they push for a larger divide between church and state. But on the other side, I like my guns, my hunting privileges, and the republicans stance on immigration”


You contradict yourself. Left of center is “left”, and that is what a liberal is. You claim to hate “that democrats buy votes”. That is exactly what the democrat party is all about, and has been for decades. It is socialism, and they mire us deeper and deeper in it. You claim to want to keep your guns, but it is the democrat that wants to take them away. They are more quiete about it ever since the elections in 94. If Obama could snap his finger and make all the private owned guns in America go away, he would do so in a hear beat. Check his previous voting record. If you want Gov out of your family, then Obama care is the biggest violator in the history of this nation. It is now the largest tax increase in the history of the world, and it punishes those who do not buy in.

As far as staying out of your family affairs. Claiming republicans want to take away birth control is a lie. The democrats want to force church run hospitals to give it out, even if it violates their religious views. No republican is asking to take away the right to purchase birth control, but we do not want to purchase it for others. Abortion is not a family matter, it is a “murder” matter. I do not understand how the dems are generally anti death penalty for a known murderer, but are fine with killing the innocent unborn.

The left is deep into your family with their state run schools. Humanism is a religion, and they teach it daily. Our public schools used to be in the control of the local community, families, and the state. Now they are run by Hillary’s village of idiots. Since the fed takeover of our schools, and removing prayer and Bible, we have dropped 25 places world wide in math and science. I thought you were a big “science” guy.

As fare as you liking the democrats funding of science and research. You mean like Solyndra's solar power solutions??? The big inventions that have improved lives, improved medicine, and from everything to include the light bulb to the automobile did not come from gov funded research. It came from capitalist in a free enterprise system. The communist nations the world over sit back, and try to copy our inventions and replicate them. We do the majority of the heavy lifting in the world of medical research, and folks like China copy it. They also copy our electronics and so on. All of their research is gov funded. Why is it that they have to sit back and copy us?\

Socialism does not work, and enslaves people. The democrats are on a direct course to socialism.

to recap - you are left of center, support the party that is all about welfare and buying votes with "stuff", you support the party that wants to take away the guns, you support the party that has all but destroyed our schools, and sent is in a downward spiral in the areas of math and science, you support the style of government that stiffles inventions, industry, and business.

The most significant discovery in evolution will occur in our lifetime when we find all elephants will have turned into donkeys by the next presidential election.

dguidry - "The most significant discovery in evolution will occur in our lifetime when we find all elephants have turned into donkeys by the next presidential election."

You might be right. Keep giving people someting for nothing, until you get a supermajority in the house and senate, and uber liberal judges in the Supreme court, financial system will completely break. Next will be the one party system, followed by confiscation of guns, Bibles, and the introduction to re-educatin camps. Nothing new, same old Marxism/Communism of the past.

ranger you are delusional, that is the only explanation for your continued ignorance. If you are so concerned about our schools performance on a global scale, take a look in the mirror, you and people like you are the cause. Take a look at national test scores broken down by state, by far the worst performers are red states. People like you preach that what is taught in school is lies and shouldn't be believed, then you brainwash children by indoctrinating them from an early age to believe your "bible truths". Your archaic beliefs are the problem with education, not the removal of it from the schools. Only when this country embraces the real truths proven by science and puts their childish beliefs in superstition behind them will we once again take the lead in global academics.

Seriously, you sit there and refuse to accept that evolution is real and quote from your bible to prove it isn't and wonder why we score so poorly in science?

As far as the rest of your bullshit claims, we do not lead the world in medical advancements, Europe has that distinction. People like you cripple scientists abilities to conduct genetic and stem cell research, and then pray to your god to cure your ailments.

None of your claims hold water, you pull "facts" out of your ass, which is amazing considering how far up there your head is.

FYI

Rubio ignites debate with answer about creationism
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/1 ... eationism/

Dguidry - I read about that on the Huffington post yesterday and found it interesting. It is as if you can see the libs, drooling as they contemplate removing the first amendment rights of freedome of speech and religion. How dare this man believe as the founing fathers did.

Idacraw what is your explanation about SAT scores dropping after prayer was removed from school?

I am not a statistician, but if I had to take a guess I would say that it most likely has to do with the fact that prior to prayer removal most of the people who participated in the SAT's were students with plans to attend college. Since then more and more students were required to take the testing and as a result the average score decreased. This can be explained by the fact that as you add more and more lower scores to a data pool the average will inevitably decrease. Compound this by making public education more available to minorities that often didn't attend school, greatly increasing the number of students taking the exam. Since the exam is mandatory, those students who simply do not care how they score will drive the average down further.

So in summary, more data points to the data pool negatively affected the average scores. This was proven when the scores were corrected by population in 1995 and the scores increased for a brief time until becoming unstable again by increasing sampling size.

SAT's are required now?

A lot of colleges require them, they are not mandatory though, should have clarified.

I do not think SATs have a bit to do with it.

When we look at our overall math and science scores, we have dropped 25 places in the world.

Folks got a better education from high school in the 50s, than what the average college grad has now.

Not being racist, but being real. When the schools got desegregated, it did not help us either. Instead of pulling up kids from the black schools, we dropped standards for all schools.

Look at the texts books for junior high kids back in the 40s and 50s, and you will be blown away at what kids used to learn. Our schools are a joke now.

We home schooled for a number of years. I have a thirteen year old daughter that has skipped three grades, and attends a very tough private school. She will graduate high school at 15. We still do roped memorization with math, and they learn English rules and grammar like kids learned it 100 years ago. The Abeka home/Christian school curriculum blows away what the public schools teach.

Once again, teach kids that they came from a monkey, and it will not be long before they start acting like one.

Reinforcing superstition in school seems like a sure way to increase the science scores.

exactly my friend, I think you are starting to see the light.

Schools adopted the supersticions of Darwin, and look where it got us.

Libs try to tell the lie that Christians do not believe in science.

The current pastor of my church has a PHD in electrical engineering. He knows science.

The Christian school my daughters attend has the highest SAT scores in the state, and they have a very strong math and science program. The geometry they learn is real geometry, same for chemistry, physics, physical science, calculus..... They have a very in-depth biology program. Currently, my 13 year old daughter is working a state level science project on levels of amonium nitrate and their effect on bean plant growth.

Instead of believing in a big bang, we believe in a very big God, who created the universe. We still study DNA, and in-depth biology. From what we see in science, it backs up what we know Biblically.

We do not stick to using the word "probably" when looking at a fossil. From what we see, the fossil record backs up what be believe about the great flood.

Idacraw and the folks at the huffington post may laugh and point fingers, but facts are facts. When we put public education in the hands of the atheist, libs, and fed gov, it went downhill quick. They did away with discipline, and academics also dropped.

Please explain how the fossil record supports your great flood.

Bush is also to blame for our currently poor state of public education, with the implementation of his No Child Left Behind Act. Another failed right wing policy.

On the plus side Obama is allowing states the option to opt out of the program and set their own criteria for evaluation, so far 28 states have submitted waiver applications.

"28 states have submitted waiver applications"

and just who do they need a waiver from?

My point exactly, the federal gov does not need its big beuracratic nose in the medical business, any more than in public education.