I am asking for your expert opinions. I am new to the Muddmotor experience other than running small engine go devils as the last leg to the blind during my guiding days. I am about to purchase my first muddmotor and because of the restrictions at the rufuge I intend to hunt.... (there is a 9 inch prop limit and 25 HP max) it seems that I am going to be limited to a longtail. I am pretty sure I am going to go with the Vanguard 23 as far as the motor but am not sure which lower unit I will go with. I would appreciate any suggestions there. Mud buddy,go devil, gator tail. If someone can sell me on the 25 Koler I would be willing to listen. I am looking for a 16x48 or a 16x46 or a 16x50 or 52. I am not sure which size will go best with my application. I will be looking at carrying 3 hunters, a dog, around 100 decoys, and gear.

I will be traveling down a nice open bayou for the first 6 miles of the trip and then dive off into the marsh running ditches that run between ponds. About another mile running these ditches. There is plenty of water in the Big bayou as well as the ditches. The ditches run a good foot and a half to to 2 feet with mostly a firmer mud bottom. Easy walking mud just sinking an inch or 2.

With the long distance I would like to be able to run as fast as possible when I am in the big bayou since that is the majority of my trip without sacrificing being able to get up when I am ready to leave the pond. ( I use the word fast very loosely considering the HP and load ) My understanding is that at 1 1/2 to 2 feet of water is like an ocean in the mud motor world...haha. I would love to hear from some of the old salts of the mudmotor world that have already paid their dues. What boat will perform the best...fastest...etc. etc. What speed will I be looking at...guessing 15mph or so????

I really appreciate a place like this where a noobe like me can get information from knowledgable posters. Thanks in Advance and I anxiously await any feedback that any of you deem important.

For what you're describing look into the GTR with the 25hp subaru engine... I know someone was also making refuge props for it that gave some pretty decent performance for being a cutdown 9" prop... also if you're gonna be guiding the reverse would be a nice convenience to have.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45488&p=602366&hilit=25hp+gtr+cut+prop+prop#p602366

The 25 Kohler motors are hard to beat. I had one on a long tail for 5 years and NEVER had motor troubles EVER. Strong running motor. Id stay away from the Subaru if it were me, but that's jmo. I would go with a longtail only because of prop size restrictions. I would also go with a narrow boat say 1636 or 1642 max for running ditches.

Go devil makes a surface drive geared specifically for running refuges. Doesn't have reverse but the unit is tough as nails and will give you years of service. They also make hulls specifically laid out for the engine restriction you're encountering.

Just some more information and questions. I will not be guiding on the refuge. My guiding days are over. Smoke who is making a 25 Kohler Long-tail? I have not seen them.

Swamp Donkey that sounds awesome. He is in my area and really close. I hope he chimes in and maybe he will really be able to help me. I am thinking that IF I can go to a surface drive motor and stay within the 25 hp and 9 inch prop limits....I would love to do so.(even if the price will skyrocket ) Am I wrong in thinking that with a long-tail I will not get the speeds this guy is with the GTR-25? I am in good shape but I am 51....Battling a Long-tail does not scare me away but I will spend the money for speed and ease of driving on my long trips. Thinks again guys and please keep adding your input.

Smoke is right about the 25 GD LT Kohlers, had two of them and they were solid, as is my present 27 Kohler MB. I will not suggest a surface drive on this longtail forum- the ones mentioned are tried and true- but if you are set on a longtail, BackH20 swomp 23 (the next HP up is 27) would fit the bill. If you have no need of heavy gauge, and down here we don't, a riveted 1648 or 1848 short transom hull would be a good fit. My friend has a 20+ year old Lowe and GoDevil 25 LT that have been really workaholics albeit a few repairs on the motor as you would expect after hundreds of hours and years. The father and two sons, all three well over 200# run 17.5 mph with duck hunting gear on that old riveted Lowe. I believe the 23 comes with a recoil start as well as being electric start which is a definite plus if you battery runs down. You can take a riveted hull and add Gatorglide or steelflex and get more out of it in the mud and veggies. Obviously if you run in stumps, beaver dams, and are abusive, you will better opt for the all-welded .125 gauge but that is not a necessity otherwise. A lot easier to move a lighter hull over shallows and when you have to push pole. In 25 years I have not really found enough instances for reverse, mostly shallow sawgrass marsh with a hard bottom, the LT shines, add to that the much lower cost and maintenance costs. Not to knock GD, I started with an 18 HP LT and it worked well within limitations but the best new design is definitely BW. Of course the other important consideration is the fact GD may suit you better because of proximity and/or repair facilities and dealers.
There are several custom fabbers in La. and TX. and you can probably get a hull to match your needs. I also advise to test drive whatever you come across, this investment should last you a ducking lifetime.

for motor brand, every body has an opinion and I appreciate that. I chose to mount Kohlers over Briggs and Hondas for what I thought were legitimate reasons. The Kohlers were great motors and the 25 has good features. I switched to Robins by choice. In my opinion, the finest industrial motor on the planet. You will have no regrets mounting a 25 HP Robin.

Mark F. Cheney

I would personally stick with the vanguard. If you want a long tail I would go with backwaterinc, other wise I would look into copperhead mud motors, but def wouldnt rule out the 25gtr.

The copperhead with a 23 is a very nice combo, very light weight. We had just shy of 800lbs in a 1744 the other weekend, got on plane with out much trouble and it ran 15-16+ into the current and wind, and 17-18+ down current with wind.( 240lb guy, myself at 220, driver at 230, my son at 55, blind with grass, small tool box and other misc stuff). Never got to run it empty but I was very impressed to say the least.

You could always mod the 23 vanguard. No one needs to know.

Thanks to everyone that had added to this discussion. I think I am leaning toward the 25-GTR on the 1648 Gator Tail Boat that has been mentioned Tad is running. However I still have a LOT of questions. WHO MAKES A 25 KOHLER LT? From my investigation...most businesses are using the 23 Vanguard because of the weight power performance it provides. None of them have a 25hp. I hate sacrificing the extra 2 MPH.

I investigated GD SD motors and I have to say that I will not be buying a GD. They have changed back all their 25hp motors running a 9 inch prop because of poor performance. He also told me not to believe a word that is written on this site. Just a vibe while talking to him and the wording of their warrenty...NO THANKS!!!

I do know that a suggestion of going to a rivited Lowe type hull(lighter) might definitely be an option. I just worry that with the GTR-25 running the Instegator 9 I might be messing with a good thing and change the performance that has already been established.

Maybe I am underestimating the speeds I might be able to get from a LT. Just in my talks the 15 mph with my load really sent up a red flag. Again my load will be: 3 hunters with an average of 200lbs. (600) 100 lb dog and around 100 decoys.

Thanks to everyone that had added to this discussion. I think I am leaning toward the 25-GTR on the 1648 Gator Tail Boat that has been mentioned Tad is running. However I still have a LOT of questions. WHO MAKES A 25 KOHLER LT? From my investigation...most businesses are using the 23 Vanguard because of the weight power performance it provides. None of them have a 25hp. I hate sacrificing the extra 2 MPH.

I investigated GD SD motors and I have to say that I will not be buying a GD. They have changed back all their 25hp motors running a 9 inch prop because of poor performance. He also told me not to believe a word that is written on this site. Just a vibe while talking to him and the wording of their warrenty...NO THANKS!!!

I do know that a suggestion of going to a rivited Lowe type hull(lighter) might definitely be an option. I just worry that with the GTR-25 running the Instegator 9 I might be messing with a good thing and change the performance that has already been established.

Maybe I am underestimating the speeds I might be able to get from a LT. Just in my talks the 15 mph with my load really sent up a red flag. Again my load will be: 3 hunters with an average of 200lbs. (600) 100 lb dog and around 100 decoys.

So if you listen to smoke you are going to be confused. Last week great... This week you'll have to buy ten just to have enough parts to keep one running.

just some of my experience. if you are looking at a 23 LT I have a go devil and love it but look at b@(k water motors. as far as boats I have an 1836 GD it will do 19 mph me and 16-17 mph with 4 people. just FYI my next mud boat will be 1844 GD with a b@(k water 23 hp LT. I do think with the prop restriction the LT will be the way to go.

Only thing I've heard (other than nicknack crap) on here was a couple guys, one was Willet, that the ECU was shutting down the motor while working it hard. I don't remember the details. Maybe Willet will chime in.

I'm happy with my 2000 model kohler 25 on a mud budy frame been a good unit and il take bearing over a bushing. Mounted on a 14 x44 Jon with pods drafts well and does 18 to 20 mph with a hill 9x7 prop. Mud buddy is overnight them now